by SweetBabyCheezits 87 Replies latest jw friends
Have you seen the news today?
And you think God created the earthquake and the Tsunami?
Dude that is the thinking of ancient man that saw God EVERYWHERE and in EVERYTHING.
If he went to war and slaugthered people and won, God was with him, if he lost, God was displeased with his sacrifice.
The world is the way it is because it has always been that way (earthquakes, hurricanes, volcanoes, tsunamis, etc, etc).
Well I don't think you can beg off to some sort of timeline (John wrote all the lovey-dovey stuff first!) because it's not like the Church Fathers just pulled angry God out of thin air. They were going off of plenty of years of history and written and oral tradition up to that point.
No, they went with what THEY believed was the way to go, like those before them.
I guess it's just picking and choosing which of these scriptures you want to be emphasized in your faith, if you don't want to admit that the picture of God as an entity who hates us all is accurate, placed right alongside the God loves us all and wants us to be reconciled (to himself, again because he hates us by default).
Liek the early chruch fathers did, they picked and chose to, that was my point all along.
And no mater how many times you say it, that God hates us, you won't make it so, sorry.
I'll have another sweet sweet helping of cognitive dissonance, thank you.
We all suffer from it, just depending on which side of the argument you are one, you think you don't have it and the other side does.
And no mater how many times you say it, that God hates us, you won't make it so, sorry.
Oh I forgot you've re-written the bible to suit your own personal theology so all the scriptures that clearly state that God hates us, we are his enemy, his anger and wrath blazes against us...those are all just metaphors or something.
We all suffer from it, just depending on which side of the argument you are one, you think you don't have it and the other side does.
Not in this case, I dont.
And you think God created the earthquake and the Tsunami?
That wasn't his point at all. He didn't state that God had anything to do with it, simply that he failed to prevent it. (and always has). If he is ignoring it, he's an asshole. If he is powerless to do anything about it, he doesn't deserve his title.
And you think God created the earthquake and the Tsunami?
No, I don't believe in a "loving" god that causes the innocent to suffer... anymore than I believe in a "loving" god who permits the innocent to suffer (and on such a grand scale). Both of those concepts are equally self-refuting, IMO.
The quote from Epicurus sums up my feelings as well.
EDIT: As does Superpunk.
Oh I forgot you've re-written the bible to suit your own personal theology so all the scriptures that clearly state that God hates us, we are his enemy, his anger and wrath blazes against us...those are all just metaphors or something.
You knwo that you can take off the JW's glasses now, its ok to se things for yourself and just because you were told to see things in the bible a certain way, doesn't mean the ones that told you that were right, I mean, they were wrong about everything else weren't they?
You pick and choose the pasages that you believe make Gd sound like an asshole and a blood thirty tyrant and criticize me when I show the ones that show God to be loving and caring.
Funny how that works...
Fact is that I accept that anceint man saw God that way and that I believe them to be incorrect in their understanding and that God's real nature is revealed in His Son.
You of course are under no obligation to accept that view, as I am unde rno obligation to accept YOUR view.
Nice to be out of the WT isn't it?
No, I don't believe in a "loving" god that causes the innocent to suffer... anymore than I believe in a "loving" god who permits the innocent to suffer (and on such a grand scale). Both of those concepts are equally self-refuting, IMO.
So you accept that bad things simple happen, correct? and that there is nothing to be done about, such is life, correct?
You pick and choose the pasages that you believe make Gd sound like an asshole and a blood thirty tyrant and criticize me when I show the ones that show God to be loving and caring.
Funny how that works...
No, I understand that they both exist, however they are conflicting ideals. I'm also aware that the bible writers were not the least bit troubled by this (as you are not), as they consistently wrote about how loving it was for God to redeem us....right after they got done telling us how much he hated us, without the benefit of blood sacrifice. It's the cognitive dissonance all believers have to deal with, JW or otherwise. You don't need JW glasses to read the clear passages in the bible. Do a google search for things like "Jesus blood gods wrath" and find a bevy of Christians who understand the bible as written.
Here's an example.
"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation." " (Romans 5:9-11) If when we were God's enemy, he sent Jesus to the cross to die a criminals death in our stead, what wouldn't he do for you now that you have receive right standing with him through faith in Jesus' blood? Jesus atonement for your sin had such a profound effect upon your born again spirit that when God looks at you he sees Jesus. That is cause for rejoicing today!
There are plenty of Christians who would completely disagree with your cherry-picking theology. And they don't need "JW glasses" to read the clear message about God's wrath being pacified only through a violent, bloody sacrifice.
You knwo I love you guys, I really do.
You challenge me more than I ever though possible and I knwo that I can't convince you of my POV nor am I trying, I am simply stating what I believe and why and I don't even ask that you agree with me.
I do thank you for challenging my views and opening my eyes to the questions that are out there and for that, I am very grateful to you guys, truly :)
Here's a guy clearly looking at this issue through JW glasses. Nevermind that he's Baptist?
Simply stated, Romans 5:10 teaches that God considers you His enemy. God's anger hangs over you. God must be reconciled or He will punish you as His enemy. Right now God is your enemy. God is against you because of your sin. Nothing that you do can turn away the anger that God has toward you. Christ's Blood alone can do that.
"For he [God] hath made him [Christ] to be sin for us, who knew no sin" (II Corinthians 5:21).
Christ was punished by God on the Cross, as a sin offering. The anger of God was poured out on Jesus to make possible God's reconciliation to you. God could never have been reconciled to a sinner like you unless Jesus had been punished by God on the Cross.
The Bible tells us that Jesus Christ "is the propitiation for our sins" (I John 2:2). God poured out His anger and judgment on His own Son, on the Cross, to make it possible for Him to be reconciled to you.
"Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin…He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied…" (Isaiah 53:10-11).
"Propitiation" is the appeasement of the wrath of God by the Blood of Jesus. God's anger against you is quieted by the Blood of Jesus. God's rage and fury against you can only be calmed by the Blood of Christ. The furious rage of God against you can only be tranquilized by the satisfying payment of Jesus' Blood.
"…Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood" (Romans 3:25).
So, we ask, "Is 'propitiation' the appeasement of God's wrath?" - And our answer is, "Yes it is."
Adam committed the greatest criminal act in human history. As a result, God justly turned His back on Adam's race, humanity as a whole. God now remains man's judge. The only thing a human being can expect to receive from God is punishment. Man is an incorrigible criminal in the sight of God. God must be reconciled before He can turn to man in acceptance. God could only be reconciled by the vicarious work of Christ on the Cross, in which Christ became the substitute for our sins. The Bible says, "He was wounded for our transgressions; he was bruised for our iniquities" (Isaiah 53:5). J. Oliver Buswell puts it this way: "Christ died for our sins in our place as our substitute" (J. Oliver Buswell, Jr., Ph.D., A Systematic Theology of the Christian Religion, Zondervan, 1971, p. 72).
Yes, propitiation is the appeasement of the wrath of God by the Blood of Jesus. God's rage and fury against you for your sin can only be calmed by the satisfying Blood of Christ.
So you accept that bad things simple happen, correct? and that there is nothing to be done about, such is life, correct?
I find it interesting that there has been concern in the scientific community - among lowly humans, mind you - as to the ethical issues of performing psychological experiments like the Milgram Experiment on other humans. The primary concern is about putting psychological stress on participants... who volunteered.
If god is the great scientist, and he is love and justice to the superlative degree, why does he allow extreme suffering and psychological stress for participants who were thrust into this "experiment". Why does this trip the ethics-alarm among puny, imperfect humans but not god?
