Question of the Day: Why are so very few of Jesus ACTUAL WORDS...

by Terry 88 Replies latest jw friends

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    Says who?

    Ummmmm... I think both dear Quentin's and your own assertions... along with many scholars... dear Terry (peace to you!). Although, none of these are my source; rather, that would be what I received from my Lord himself.

    Greek was the international language of the Roman Empire, and was spoken publicly in the majority of Roman provinces.

    Yes. But my Lord didn't speak publicly to the Romans, dear one. And while it is true that many Jews spoke Greek, many did not. And most of the Greek-speaking Jews also spoke Aramaic ("Hebrew").

    Aramaic was the native language of most Jews living in Judea, Galilee and Babylon.

    Yep. The first two being where my Lord spoke most often...

    But Aramaic was typically restricted to communication among family members behind closed doors.

    Ummmmm... which is primarily the way... and place... my Lord spoke to Matthew, Peter (Mark's father, who gave Mark his account), and Lazarus ("John")... as well as many of those who provided an "eyewitness" account for Luke (who wasn't present at all).

    In public they spoke Greek.

    First, I would say, as you did: says who? Second, apparently the Hebrew (Aramaic) speaking widows with whom the Greek (Hellenic) speaking widows took issue weren't aware of this.

    The same was true of Latin - it was spoken within the homes of native Romans, but they spoke Greek in public discourse, even on the streets of Rome.

    Now, this I agree with, but only because apparently the Romans initially embraced the Greek language and culture, even mimicking their gods. And while I agree that a good many Jews spoke Greek (partially due to the Septuagint), that was mainly the more "educated" among them. My Lord didn't primarily go to these, however, but to the poor, downtrodden, sick... and un/less educated...

    Additionally, Galilee was not the small town rural backwater that Victorian scholars imagined. Galilee was heavily Hellenized.
    They were surrounded by several major Greek speaking cities, and nearly all of their commerce depended on the Greek speaking communities and Greek speaking merchants in the region.

    I do not dispute that; however, you actually have recorded phrases (i.e., "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani", etc.), which, if you are correct, my Lord could have just as well stated in Greek.

    In the case of Jesus, any public speaker at the time would have delivered his discourses in Greek, not Aramaic.

    His larger public discourses, perhaps. It would have depended upon the audience. What you miss, however, is WHO the gospels and letters were written BY... and TO.

    Several members of Jesus' inner circle went by their Greek names, and Jesus himself (according to the Gospel of John) spent as much as two years traveling in the Greek Decapolis bordering Galilee.

    You are a bit in error, here. Simon, the son of Jonah was given the Aramaic name "Kehpha", which, in Greek is "Kephas" (English, Cephas)... which means "piece of rock" or... petros. Peter. Matthew... is the English rendering of the Greek Matthaion... which comes from the HEBREW... "Matithjah". He was also known as "Levi", which is HEBREW. John's name was also Hebrew (Jahchanan). The names (and most of the other words) were translated TO Greek when COPIES of the originals were made FOR the Greek-speaking Jews. Since all of Paul's (?) letters were in Greek (because HE was an apostle to the nations... as well as to the Jews ABROAD - most of whom spoke Greek), the gospel accounts were copied into that language.

    The internal evidence in the Gospels also suggests that many of the statements attributed to Jesus were originally composed in Greek

    and the Gospels go out of their way to point out the few times that Jesus actually spoke Aramaic in public.

    Actually, the evidence shows otherwise: excluding Luke's accounts, perhaps, that they were first written in Aramaic and when being translated, certain phrases remained in the original language. But, I will give you a chance to back your assertion up: what internal evidence?

    When Jesus quoted the Jewish Scriptures he quoted the Greek translation word-for-word (except when he quoted the book of Job, which was arguably an inferior translation).

    Yes! Because that was the "Bible" of the day, the Septuagint! But... who did he quote it TO?? Certainly not those who put faith in him but to those who not only opposed him but sought to put him to death. To the "amhararets", however, and his disciples... he spoke in the tongue of Abraham... to the extent those understood that tongue (as it had been diluted by Chaldean and Assyrian).

    Among the Jews, the majority of the population was scattered all over the Roman world, and Greek was their first language.

    My Lord did not go to... or speak to these, dear Terry. He sent his apostles out for THAT purpose ("You will be witnesses of me in all Judea and Samaria... and to the distant parts of the world.")

    Aramaic was only the first language of Jews in Judea, Galilee and Babylon. Everywhere else they spoke Greek in public and private conversations, and even used a Greek translation of the Scriptures.

    But we're talking about my Lord's words, are we not, and those HE spoke to, yes? And he spoke to the Jews that HE taught in their original language. You know... like, say, Caesar Chavez would have talked to those in the fields? While some knew English, ALL knew Spanish. And what he wanted to say to them made more sense and had MUCH greater impact when he said it to them in Spanish and when he did in English.

    So it is not surprising that the Gospels were written in Greek.

    Excluding Luke, however, they weren't. Nor was the Revelation. Which is WHY they're not as easily discernable as some would think they should be. Because something got LOST... in the translations. The Greeks did not believe in one God, Terry, or a whole lot of things the Hebrews did... and so the translations make some things SEEM confusing... when they really are not. Not if you understand Hebrew (Aramaic). Sort of like the difference between American and Japanese humor: what's funny to them is not so much to us... and vice versa.

    There was a rumor for a while that Matthew may have been composed in Aramaic, but there is not a shred of evidence to substantiate that view, and it has been abandoned by modern academic consensus.

    And of course, they know, right? You surprise me, Terry: on the one hand we're not to put a shred of belief in what folks have to say on things relating to God and the Bible, yet... we're supposed to believe what they say. Wouldn't it be better to simply get it from the horse's mouth? ASK him: "Hey, Lord, what language did you use when speaking to the people?" Then just put faith in what he tells you. It really is that simple... albeit, you have to (1) believe he exists, (2) believe he'll answer, and (3) pay attention when he does. Those parts apparently aren't so easy for some.

    The only reason anyone believed it in the first place is that a single fragment of a 2nd century Christian writing mentioned that Matthew wrote an account of the life of Christ in Hebrew.

    Ahhhh, so it's okay to believe all the other "fragments" but not that one? And this fragment predates the canonization of the Bible? I get it: you won't believe it until, say, the Vatican opens all of its hidden vaults and brings out all of the stuff... codexes, fragments, papyruses, etc.... that it has hidden there... and unless and until they do... what scholars have been ABLE to review is the "truth"? What will you do, dear Terry, when say, 10, 20, or so years from now another "fragment" turns up? Will you do as the WTBTS does and say, "Oh, well, see, that was the truth AT THE TIME, but we now have NEW light on the matter?"

    Use your common sense, dear one. THINK about who my Lord publicly spoke to and what was said to the particular audience... and why. I live in Oakland, CA, where there is huge population of English-speaking Hispanics. HUGE. Yet, SPANISH is the language spoken at virtually every Hispanic event held. Sure, a few words of English here and there for the "kids." But native tongue is virtually ALWAYS used when one wants to reach the HEART of a people. Sure, my Lord may have spoken Greek to those who he knew could/would not accept his messages; but he spoke to "Israel" in the tongue of Abraham, dear one. I promise you.

    Again, peace to you!

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    SA,

    Good comments. Peace, Lilly

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Ummmm... dear Terry (again, peace to you!), first you post:

    Jesus spoke Aramaic. Maybe a bit of what was called "market Greek". A smattering of Hebrew....perhaps. Nationally, Jews: largely Aramaic. They had done so for five hundred years. Greek secondarily. Hebrew: rarely.

    Then you post:

    In the case of Jesus, any public speaker at the time would have delivered his discourses in Greek, not Aramaic. ... Among the Jews, the majority of the population was scattered all over the Roman world, and Greek was their first language. Aramaic was only the first language of Jews in Judea, Galilee and Babylon. Everywhere else they spoke Greek in public and private conversations, and even used a Greek translation of the Scriptures.

    Can you clarify, please, exactly what [you believe] your position is?

    Thank you and, again, peace to you!

    Your servant and a slave of Christ,

    SA

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    The quotes are quotes from the NT, this supposed Savior and messiah said what he said about 'left hand right hand' stuff.

    Methinks you are referring to my Lord's prophecy about the sheep and the goats, dear designs (as always, peace to you!); unfortunately, methinks you're also falling prey to the misinterpretations of various false prophets and false christs because while my Lord DOES grant entry into the kingdom for those on his right (the sheep)... he does absolutely nothing to those on his left (the goats), other than restrain from giving them a white robe (which denies them entry into the kingdom). But he doesn't do anything TO them.

    You are more than welcome to disagree, dear one, but I would ask... again... that you back up your assertion. That would require you reading the account, of course, which I've already suggested... rather than just being a blind follower and going by what some may tell you it says.

    All the johnny come latelies just don't like what he had to say about ending human civilization so they are hell bent on reinventing a Jesus Lite

    Again, WHERE does my Lord says he will end human civilization (unless you mean the human "system" as we know it and in that case, where truly is the harm?). And wouldn't doing that be a direct undermining of the resurrection?

    I await your response and, again, peace to you!

    YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

    SA

  • Terry
    Terry
    Jesus spoke Aramaic. Maybe a bit of what was called "market Greek". A smattering of Hebrew....perhaps. Nationally, Jews: largely Aramaic. They had done so for five hundred years. Greek secondarily. Hebrew: rarely.

    Then you post:

    In the case of Jesus, any public speaker at the time would have delivered his discourses in Greek, not Aramaic. ... Among the Jews, the majority of the population was scattered all over the Roman world, and Greek was their first language. Aramaic was only the first language of Jews in Judea, Galilee and Babylon. Everywhere else they spoke Greek in public and private conversations, and even used a Greek translation of the Scriptures.

    Can you clarify, please, exactly what [you believe] your position is?

    Just as stated above. Jesus would have spoken Aramaic primarly among his own people, within his community and family as the indigenous language.

    In the public places it was common to employ Greek in somewhat the same way Diplomats in the 20th Century would conduct diplomacy in French.

    This would be common or "marketplace" use of Greek the way Latinos switch to English when they go out and buy things among Anglos.

    The scriptures among Jews was written in Greek (Septuagint) due to the loss of Hebrew as a people largely ignorant of their historic language.

    Jews at large(Diaspora) spoke Greek. Jews in particular areas (Judea, Galilee, Bablyon) preferred Aramaic as their primary language.

    How much clearer can I state this?

  • Aussie Oz
    Aussie Oz

    getting back on topic...

    terry, you asked for peoples ideas, thoughts on why so few words from the carpenters son...

    mine... Firstly, because IF he existed, he had little to say that was worth writting down.

    What got 'remembered' and was written down was selected for its usefulness in creating a movement.

    and secondly, the Bible itself is nothing but gobbledegook, and as such, so are the alledged teachings of this mysterious Jewish fella.

    oz

  • wobble
    wobble

    I concur with Aussie Oz,

    The problem is we only have the very poor writings that comprise the N.T, I say poor, because they are of so doubtful a provenance, and were written with an agenda.

    It would be great if a genuine collection of Jesus sayings, something like the gospel of Thomas, were found, maybe one day they will be, he must have been quite something as a teacher for the cult to arise, but what we have at present gives us no firm evidence as to how good he was.

    What seems to be his "original words" in the N.T do not seem to be original in their content, older sages having expressed the same thought i.e

    The Golden Rule- Rabbi Hillel, and every major philosophy and religion prior to 1st century.

    Forgiving 77 times, again found in many Eastern religions and other philosophies, and so on.

    To find his own thoughts, with some original thinking in them would be marvellous.

  • Quentin
    Quentin

    "... I think both dear Quentin's and your own assertions... along with many scholars... Although, none of these are my source; rather, thatwould be what I received from my Lord himself"....Shelby

    Shelby, I admire your faith, but you have taken the thread off topic by carring the topic into an abstract debate over what language Jesus spoke. The language is not IMPORTANT. Rather it is WHY we have so very few of Jesus actual words. Then "what I received from my Lord himself" being your appeal to authority. Okay, fine that's YOUR a posteriori experience. This is an a priori topic, we have NO experince of Jesus actual words. That is the why we seek to answer. God speaks to me as well, through many venus. I very seldom if ever inject that into a disscission, even with Terry, there's no value in it. Facts, logic, reason the correspondence theory of truth are our watchwords. Not what we precive as received from the Lord himself.

    Take a red letter edtion of the Bible, read the red letter words only. Therein you will find that 10-20% of what is written may be the actual words of Jesus. The rest being what the writers chose to incorperate into their gospels. Now, lets get back to the why and stay off these sidebars.

  • designs
    designs

    When in doubt be sure to Channel your Higher Power for the right answers.....

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    There is absolutely no proof that Jesus' exact words were lost. We discussed this in our Lenten form last night comparing Scripture vs. Christian legend. Scripture was determined by a bunch of men. God was not in the process. We approach this from a Western time frame, that things can be recorded with veracity, that first thing happened, then another thing happened. Jesus was not raised in the Roman tradition but Eastern. Truth is not confined to written words. Authors who claim apostolic authority were not purposefully lying. Anthrolpogists have studied oral traditions around the globe. These people knew how essential it was to remember every little detail. A range of cultures have legends that have been intact with no change in details for many centuries.

    I'd be comfortable if the New York Times and Wall St. Journal documented Jesus' ministry. As a Western trained student, I was told to diminsh oral traditions. It is cultrual imperialism.

    People knew what Jesus said, what he did, what others said and did. Why bother to repeat it? Better to tackle fresh problems. John writes pure theology b/c theology became a concern. It was not a concern for Mark, etc. I've always believed that the Gospel requires faith. As Paul wrote, it is folly. Strange belief. I don't know for a fact if Jesus exact words were used but it is a very unimportant point to me. The cross is the central message. What does it all matter without faith in the cross?

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