Oops, meant to say "now" instead of "not" and for some reason I can't correct it.
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by Dawn2011 35 Replies latest social relationships
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tec
:)
I have a powerful urge to go and watch some 'Next Generation' now too.
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jean-luc picard
Make it so.
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dgp
Welcome, Dawn. I'm another worldly myself and I came to this forum in a situation that was similar to yours in a way, but very different in another. My experience ended very badly. You know that hindsight is a wonderful thing, and now that I can look back I can tell you that, in my case at least, I should have been a lot smarter. I can say that I was in love and that didn't leave me think straight, but that is no consolation, and no excuse, either.
I say this because I will give you the perspective of someone who tried and failed.
The first thing I need to ask is what you want opinions for. Do you want to find the best way to make the relationship work? Do you want the best approach to making him open his eyes? Or, help coping with the loss? In each case, what you will do needs to be different. But, in every case, you need to be able to deal with the idea of losing him.
The first answer is very easy, in terms of giving it, but very difficult, in terms of living it. You just have to do whatever an elder tells you to do! Give up all expectations of independence and submit to whatever they tell you! Also, submit to whatever HE tells you. Accept the idea that you should rather die than take a blood transfusion. That's it.
There is one problem with this option. Your guy will never be yours to keep. He is out now, but when things get serious he talks about going back. A sign that he would put the organization first. You could obey everything they told you to do, and still you would never ever have him for sure. The organization is a treadmill.
If you want opinions on how to make him open his eyes. I will assume that you have already made up your mind about being open to lose him. Because you might think that this disagreement he voiced here, and that complaint there, are evidence enough that he wants out, and still misread him miserably. Or, you could read him correctly, but he could still go back to the organization. Other people, witnesses or former witnesses themselves, can give you a better idea of what to say or how to plant seeds of doubt in him. But you could end up losing him, and this you need to be ready for.
And then, if you don't think you can be with him, read all you can about the organization. You will need this to be able to have closure. You might think that it is your fault that you're not with him. You can think "well, it can't be that bad if people actually spend their lives in it, can it? Why not try? Just a bit. I will give in here only" You would end up giving in everything anyways.
Some time ago, someone, another worldly, pointed out in a different forum that he found his girlfriend was telling him something like "if you loved me, you would take the step of accepting the Truth. Don't make me choose betweem you and Jehovah". This is emotional blackmail. Don't give in to such a thing. If he loved you, couldn't he choose to remain out of the Watchtower instead?
In my experience, the witness in question also told me she was a witness the day I met her. She also said she believed in her religion even if I didn't. I thought that was just a comment. Well, no. She actually meant, "Sorry, I think you're good, but you're not a witness". This isn't just being honest. It's also the first hurdle for you to clear. He already liked you and wanted to know whether you would mind his being a witness. As you can see now, it doesn't mean he doesn't mind your not being one.
In a way, I agree he shouldn't have gone out with you. As in the witness of my case, this person is fully aware that he is not supposed to entertain feelings for a worldly, yet he let the relationship develop. Yes, he gave in to his normal, human side; but he knew what you were doing, and you didn't. He didn't put all the cards on the table, really.
He doesn't want to lose the relationship he has with his daughter and grand-children. Well, he could marry an unbeliever and that wouldn't necessarily bring his disfellowshipment. His relationship with his family would be strained, yes, but it could continue to exist. Let me ask you a question: How come he can ask YOU to lose your relationship to your own family and friends? Because the religion would ask you to "quit mixing" with the world, and he knows it. How come he asks you to think about his family, but he doesn't seem to think about yours?
Sorry, but, if he is not talking about marriage, then you have nothing. He wouldn't be allowed to have you on the side, and he knows that full well.
This is bad and sad, and probably it hurts people here, but, you know? I had my share of tears as well. I can't tell you what to do. I am just pointing out some unpleasant conclusions you might eventually reach.
You say your heart aches because you know you would never be the partner he wants. Well, to put it bluntly, let your heart not ache over not being what the Watchtower expects you to be, OK?
You think that you guys could be together if only he opened his eyes. Yeah, that's true. Unfortunately it might not come true. I remember the many nights that I had problems with this, the books I bought for her to read, if only the chance came up. I remember how I tried to stay in touch from a distance just to make sure she would have enough for a decent living. I tried to stay in touch in case she were disfellowshipped and had no one to turn to. But, in the end, I had to give even that up, you know? And that hurts a lot.
I remember the time she turned me down for good. We both were driving along the same road, and I was looking at her car from the distance. I could have killed myself. I was just clinging to the very last second I would see her. And, what good came out of it? Nothing. Be ready for such a thing.
I'm here if you think I can help you.
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Lozhasleft
I suggested Crisis of Conscience for him on the basis that if he's been away from the org for 2 years already because of his disillusionment with the treatment from the elders, then he is probably ripe for reading some real truths about the org to set himself completely free, and he will have the advantage of being able to think and reason with such a distance from the cult rules, hopefully....
Seems a good idea though to read it yourself and leave it lying around, which would put less pressure on him. I think his curiosity would probably get the better of him. And if he objected to your having the book that would be a huge warning sign about how much control the Organisation still has over him and you could raise the issue that you wouldnt ever agree to its having that control over you.
I do hope thinks work out the way you want - its easy to say 'leave him', but you're only human and obviously have deep feelings about this man and he you, so its worth giving it your best shot, isnt it?
Loz x
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dgp
I respect Lozhasleft's post above. I am not in here for the purpose of creating unnecessary pain and, yes, in this circumstances, one wonders why not try to give it the best shot. I just wonder how "best shot" is defined, in terms of what the poster wants and expects. I'm also trying to tell her that there is little chance she will be with her man if she doesn't convert, and, if she does, he will probably never be truly hers.
One goes through a hell of a lot of pain and thinks that if only one tries a bit harder everything will work out. But that is not the case if you don't convert.
Sometimes, trying against all odds gives you the peace of mind that comes from "Well, I tried". But then, as time goes on, you wonder whether it really made sense.
Personally, I find that I could have done a lot more for that witness if I had hidden my feelings.
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Highlander
I've been thinking about my own circumstances of being with a jw wife(she's mostly inactive now and I'm 100% inactive). I realized a couple of years ago that by choosing to marry my current wife I had consciously or subconsciously decided that she was the best I could do. I basically settled and felt that I could not find anyone better.
Instead of having a healthy self esteem and self worth and realizing that I could make a better decision, I instead chose a path of pain and suffering. I could have done so much better, I just didn't believe it at the time.
I made the decision to marry a member of a dangerous mind control cult. We now have a child together. The list of potential and real issues are endless.
So I must ask: Is this guy the best that you can do? Are you unable to find someone who is not affiliated with a dangerous mind control cult? There's billions of people on this planet. I'm positive you can find a healthier person to share your life with. I know it would hurt to end this relationship, but trust me, the pain of staying in the relationship long term far exceeds any sad emotions of ending it.
Walk-away believers(the term used to describe people who are inactive yet believing jws) can be more fanatical than active cult members. Maybe you should take his cue and walk away.
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james_woods
There are many threads on this subject.
I have come to the reluctant conclusion that the brainwashing (unless erased by pure logic) is stronger than any human emotion - including love between man and woman.
I am personally trying to help such a person (he has a loved girl fiancee wanting to go back to the JW under influence) -
And, I can say this: I have more sympathy for the non-JW in this circumstance than any practical advice.
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Highlander
I have come to the reluctant conclusion that the brainwashing (unless erased by pure logic) is stronger than any human emotion - including love between man and woman.
I agree with James.
In the JW cult, the member is expected to sacrifice their children or themselves instead of authorizing a life saving medical treatment involving blood.(the jw blood doctrine limits the type of medical care a member can receive)
In the JW cult, families are destroyed forever because of their shunning policies(disfellowshipping and disassociation)
Indoctrination and mind control are the tools used to control people in such a way that their behavior becomes completely unnatural and potentially deadly.
It's just not worth it to knowingly involve yourself in any of this.
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dgp
Instead of having a healthy self esteem and self worth and realizing that I could make a better decision, I instead chose a path of pain and suffering. I could have done so much better, I just didn't believe it at the time.
I have come to the reluctant conclusion that the brainwashing (unless erased by pure logic) is stronger than any human emotion - including love between man and woman.
Yes to both.
I may add, for your sake, Dawn, and for any other non-JW's sake as well, that you need to see things the way they are. The JW in the relationship IS NOT RIGHT.
What I feel is that you instinctively know this. I sort of knew it myself, but I couldn't find the right words to say it. I could do it after a very long time and lots of suffering.