@miseryloveselders:
Please, please continue doing what you do.
Ok.
@jookbeard:
they certainly do have a choir....
Actually, we don't.
@andrekish:
Since Christ himself quoted Daniel it is hard to see how Daniel can be portrayed as a false prophet as some claim since Jesus probably would have mentioned this and corrected Daniel.
Actually, most of the folks that have been bashing Jehovah's Witnesses for this reason or that reason in this thread do not believe what Daniel's prophecy says, are not at all concerned about his reference to "seven times" (at Daniel 4:25), nor are they moved in the least to consider Jesus' words regarding "the appointed times of the nations" (at Luke 21:24).
Your point, however, is well taken, but the people to whom I was really speaking when I stated what I did in this thread, as well as now, are those that read the threads here on JWN -- the lurkers -- for there is perhaps more hope among them than there are among the majority of those that come here for the fun they derive from bashing folks that actually do believe that God exists and who fervently pray for the coming of God's kingdom. (Matthew 6:9, 10)
Jehovah's Witnesses do look forward to the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ from heaven with his powerful angels as he brings God's vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who are not obedient to the good news about our Lord Jesus, those who will soon experience the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction. (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)
@djeggnog wrote:
Are you suggesting that Jehovah's Witnesses should abandon all of their beliefs with respect to the year 1914, which would mean their giving up on 607 BC, on their interpretation of the "seven times" of Daniel 4:25, on the 2,520-year span of years separating the beginning of the appointed times of the nations and the fulfillment of these "seven times"? If so, we won't, but my question to you is why is it that these other Christian denominations can believe that Jesus is God and that God is triune, and whatever other things they choose to believe, and Jehovah's Witnesses cannot believe what they choose to believe?
@poopsiecakes wrote:
Not to mention that now that they've abandoned the idea of the creative days lasting 7,000 years everything kinda falls apart.
We abandoned what now? Jehovah's Witnesses will readily admit that we were speculating as to whether each creative day was 7,000 years long in length, which theory was based upon the fact that mankind has been here on earth for a little more than 6,000 years, actually 6,036 years. We reasonably arrived at each creative day perhaps being 7,000 years in length by adding the 6,000 years that human beings have been alive on earth with the 1,000-year Millennial Reign of Christ. Although Jehovah's Witnesses have no way to determine to exact number of years of which each creative day consist, we have deduced that they each creative day is at least 7,000 years in length.
If we knew exactly how many years each creative day consisted, then Jesus' words at Matthew 24:34 would not have been true as to our not knowing the "day and hour" since we would have been able to narrow the commencement of Armageddon down to 365.25 days or 8,766 hours, making what Jesus also stated at Matthew 24:43, 44, "if the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into ... [so] on this account you too prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that you do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming," meaningless. Jesus even stated after his resurrection by way of revelation through the apostle John at Revelation 3:3, "I shall come as a thief, and you will not know at all at what hour I shall come upon you."
Contrary to what you want to believe, Jehovah's Witnesses haven't "abandoned" any of what we believe regarding the seven creative days being 7,000 years each. We feel certain that they are at least 7,000 years in length, but clearly we are unable to say precisely how long each creative day. Perhaps you are confusing the question regarding 1914 in this thread with a question you have about the length of the seven creative days, but unless it is you that is 'kinda falling apart,' not a thing is 'kinda falling apart' here.
None of Jehovah's Witnesses ought to have been teaching a 7,000-year creation day without their providing a clear explanation of that on which our beliefs in this regard are based. Jehovah's Witnesses do not desire to mislead anyone, but many of them were themselves misled by those that tended to skip over the explanation that our belief regarding the length of the seven creation days will be speculative until that "day and hour" when Armageddon comes upon "this generation." (Matthew 24:34)
@djeggnog wrote:
Are you suggesting that Jehovah's Witnesses should abandon all of their beliefs with respect to the year 1914, which would mean their giving up on 607 BC, on their interpretation of the "seven times" of Daniel 4:25, on the 2,520-year span of years separating the beginning of the appointed times of the nations and the fulfillment of these "seven times"? If so, we won't, but my question to you is why is it that these other Christian denominations can believe that Jesus is God and that God is triune, and whatever other things they choose to believe, and Jehovah's Witnesses cannot believe what they choose to believe?
@palmtree67 wrote:
And don't forget - they'd also have to scrap the idea that they were specially chosen by God in that year.....whoopsy-daisy!!
What idea is that? What year? 1914? Jehovah's Witnesses have never taught that they were "chosen" in any year, not 1914, not any particular year at all! I'm sorry, but you were vague, so that I admit that I'm guessing that you are referring here to the year 1914, but I feel I need to ask you: "Chosen by God" for what purpose exactly?
@djeggnog wrote:
Are you suggesting that Jehovah's Witnesses should abandon all of their beliefs with respect to the year 1914, which would mean their giving up on 607 BC, on their interpretation of the "seven times" of Daniel 4:25, on the 2,520-year span of years separating the beginning of the appointed times of the nations and the fulfillment of these "seven times"? If so, we won't, but my question to you is why is it that these other Christian denominations can believe that Jesus is God and that God is triune, and whatever other things they choose to believe, and Jehovah's Witnesses cannot believe what they choose to believe?
@therevealer wrote:
Does this mean you are a gb member sneaking on here? Or if you speak as an individual jw and you feel that you can say such a thing with any weight to its veracity, then you are [delusional].
Are you asking me what the word "we" means? If so, when I said "If so, we won't...," I was referring to Jehovah Witnesses. If you are asking me something else altogether, then please rephrase your question and maybe I'll try to answer it. (No promises though, because if you really think me to be delusional, then I am likely to just pass on responding to your rephrased question.)
Also I don't see anyone trying to tell witnesses what they can or can't believe. I just see people looking at what they believe and saying, like dude, you really think that makes any sense?
Dude, everything I say makes sense to me, right? Like, you don't really expect me to be able to think like you, or to say things that will make sense to you, do you? Dude, I'm not you, and I don't really know what you think or how you think. If I did, Dude, I wouldn't have asked you to rephrase something you wrote earlier in your post, for whereas you don't discern anyone telling Jehovah's Witnesses what they can or cannot believe, I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and many of the things that folks have said to me here regarding 1914 are essentially them telling me, "Dude, you cannot really still believe in 1914!"
Like I said already, I would have to say that Jehovah's Witnesses believe not only in 1914, but in 1915, 1916, 1917, 1918, 1919 ... 2009, 2010 and 2011, and the question the OP asked is rather vague. I think @lamallcool might have been asking whether Jehovah's Witnesses still believe and teach that the year 1914 is the year that marked the end of "the appointed times of the nations" to which Jesus refers at Luke 21:24, but he has yet to post a reply to clarify his question in follow-up.
@jay88:
The same folks who claim 1914 as relevant are the same folk who claim:
1919 was the year that Christ examined world religions
I believe 1919 to have been the year when the representatives of the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society were released from their incarceration in Atlanta, Georgia, which is when a spiritual restoration of the anointed class occurred. To what exactly are you referring here?
1935 seal of the 144,000 just to renege later, (faulty holy-spirit)
The year 1935 turned out to be when Jehovah's organization began to realize that the identification of the "great crowd" of Christ's "other sheep" at that time meant that the resurrection of anointed followers of Jesus Christ had to have begun sometime before 1935. This is how Jehovah's Witnesses interpret the events that occurred in this year.
1975 - this was the year that WTBTS endorsed the end of the world
No one among Jehovah's Witnesses endorsed the end of the world. You are very mistaken about this since first and foremost, Jesus was quite clear in saying at Matthew 24:36 that "concerning that day and hour nobody knows ... only the Father." I would point out to you that the year 1975 was the "drop dead" date, so to speak, marking the 6,000th year since God's creation of mankind with our biological paternal and material parents, Adam and Eve, and that's what 1975 has always meant to Jehovah's Witnesses.
Yes, to some that were Jehovah's Witnesses at the time, but who have since left our ranks, 1975 had meant so much more. These used their faith in a date to run up their credit cards and encumbered the souls, reasoning that they would never have to pay back the financial obligations that they incurred to anyone since all of the world's institutions would be no more, thinking that "greedy persons" would actually be able to inherit God's kingdom. (1 Corinthians 6:9, 10) That year -- 1975 -- was a period of testing, of sifting, letting us know which of us were really dedicated to Jehovah and which of us were only dedicated to a date. Many of these "greedy persons" are no longer with us.
Now while it would have been wonderful in the estimation of many -- no, in my own estimation! -- if it had turned out that the end of this system of things had come in 1975, and if the ushering in of God's new world, where things like people getting sick and dying, and crime and injustice, would then be things of a dead past, had immediately followed, and I'm sure many were disappointed over what we had speculated might occur in this year, but contrary to what many believe, Jehovah's Witnesses did not know and did not teach what would occur in 1975. We all have Bibles and they all of them contain Jesus' words at Matthew 24:36 in them, which is why we have always taught that nobody knows the "day and hour." No one can honestly say that we have at any time officially taught anything contrary to what Matthew 24:36 regarding the end. No one.
If there was anyone among us that taught contrary to what the official position of Jehovah's Witnesses was in this regard back before and during 1975, they were merely pretending to know things that they did not really know. By their failure to explain to others that what things it had been their hope were true regarding 1975 was the primary cause of the 1975 problem, since the truth regarding the significance of the year 1975 ought to have been explained as something that many had speculated and were hoping would occur, and in this way no one would have been as disappointed as many became, when it turned out that the end of this system of things did not arrive in 1975 (or at sometime during the following year).
We have many in our ranks that are prone to speak with a degree of certainty as if they are privy to knowledge that Jehovah's Witnesses do not have, and all such persons that speak with such cocky assuredness about things that cannot be proved scripturally are typically the one to whom correction if given, when possible, so that these might not speak with an affirmative air about things that are purely speculative in nature, things that might be logical or reasonable to conclude based on what things Scripture does say, but things that Jehovah's Witnesses ought to explain when speaking to others are matters of speculation only, which we are taught to do.
On yes and the waffling generation definition, .......
Jehovah's Witnesses haven't been guilty of "waffling" nor are they "waffling" now over understanding Jesus' words at Matthew 24:34 as much as struggling to comprehend what Jesus meant by "this generation" in this verse. Jehovah's Witnesses have speculated many things, but what some of them have failed in this regard to do is to explain that our belief that the end would come within the lifetime of a generation of people -- and, yes, there have been many ideas suggested as to what constitutes "this generation" to which Jesus referred at Matthew 24:34 -- was based upon what we understood at the time the word "generation" to mean.
Had this fact been provided as part of the explanation given, perhaps there wouldn't be those that point their finger as us -- people like you -- as if we were 100% of what Jesus meant by his use of the words, "this generation," when we are still seeking a scriptural answer to what he meant. We are 100% certain though that "this generation" in which we are now living "will by no means pass away until all these things occur."
Now what if we were to figure out what it was Jesus meant by the words, "this generation"? Why we would surely publish the information as well as how we were able to determine the meaning of Jesus' words, and the very same thing that occurred as the year 1975 approached would no doubt occur again, with folks flocking to Jehovah's organization at our Kingdom Halls thinking that their doing so would lead to the preservation of their souls. Perhaps it is God's will that we never figure out before the great tribulation comes what it was Jesus meant by "this generation." Who knows? Maybe this is the very reason Jesus told his followers at Matthew 24:44 the following: "On this account you too prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that you do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming."
As far any christian is concerned, the end times began with jesus death, any dates made after his death are of man's creation
What does this mean? that you believe the "end times" began with Jesus' death? Let's see: Back in the year 65 AD, the apostle Paul writes a second letter to Timothy, saying that Hy·me·nae'us and Phi·le'tus were violating what is holy by their empty speeches and by so doing had deviated from the truth in teaching "that the resurrection has already occurred," which had subverted the faith of some Christians at that time. (2 Timothy 2:16-18)
Now 65 AD is some 32 years removed from Jesus' death, and here we read Paul telling Timothy that it was apostasy for these men to be teaching "that the resurrection [had] already occurred," so, quite clearly, the end times could not have begun with Jesus' death. Or, the end times had not yet begun in the year 65 AD; maybe it's fairer to put it that way. If you have any more such false statements that you want to throw out here to test whether the holy spirit is able to overturn them, feel free. I should warn you though: The sword of the spirit is mighty, exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword. (Ephesians 6:17; Hebrews 4:12)
@djeggnog
