@djeggnog wrote:
I don't care who it was that told you such things, pretending to know God's timetable. Tell me this: Did it never occur to you when you were hearing all of these strange things that you were hearing, @The Finger, to ask where in all of this the "great tribulation," that you were taught would precede Armageddon was going to occur? Since no one has as yet declared "Peace and security!" in the Republic of Israel, and the apostle Paul indicated that such would occur before the great tribulation begins, did it ever occur to you that none of these other things that the Bible talks about at Matthew 24:21 and 1 Thessalonians 5:3 had yet taken place?
@ The Finger wrote:
I don't really follow your reasoning here.
Ok.
In the 1970's when we believed the autumn of 1975 would be the end of 6000 years of the 7th creative day. Right up until the spring of 1975 there was surely time for these events to occur. I don't think there was any set amount of time for the peace and security, i think it says sudden destruction. Are you suggesting there needed to be a set amount of time?
Yes, that is what I'm saying. I don't know how familiar you are, or if you have any familiarity at all, with the kings of the north and the south to which Daniel's prophecy refers, but it was with this in mind that I mentioned Paul's words at 1 Thessalonians 5:3, for Jehovah, universally renowned as the God of prophecy, has revealed to those of us today that have read and discern Daniel's prophecy (which could be you, but, at present, isn't you) about the events that would transpire during "the final part of the days" (Daniel 10:14). Recall that in my previous post I wrote the following:
Why do you think Paul stated what he does at Hebrew 5:14 about "solid food [belonging] to mature people..."? Because mature people are not apt to let their impatience for change get the best of them so that they ignore God's timetable, a sketch of which is provided in the Bible. Mature persons do not presume upon the Lord God Jehovah's patience, and use what little we know to twist the Scriptures, to make them say something that they do not say, something that only the "untaught and unsteady" do. (2 Peter 3:15, 16)
In this blurb, I am really talking about Bible prophecy for such "[belongs] to mature people." If you read and understand Daniel's prophecy in Daniel chapters 10 through 12, you would know that God has given to Daniel a timetable, by which "mature people" today can analyze world events and discern their significance according to God's timetable. If I were writing articles for the Watchtower today, this is how I might lay things out for the reader, but the Watchtower is now written in a way that promotes the research of articles one finds in the Watchtower Library (WTLIB) that are just as current today as they were when written, information that dates back to the 1950s.
Note that these articles contain references to the source material from which the quotes used in these articles come. Contrary to what some have claimed in this thread, research requires that one to go to their local public library, using these citations given to get a more in-depth knowledge of the topic under consideration in the WTLIB article, because in most cases only a snippet from such source material can be provided in the WTLIB article you're reading. Here on the 'net, one is often reading what someone else authored and uploaded to a website (like Wikipedia) or which someone else decided to upload to a website of their own.
While such online sources can be quite helpful, unless the electronic equivalent of an entire work has been uploaded to a website and access made available to you, these sources cannot substitute for a visit to a free public library. Some of these online sources are available for download, but require payment, which must be made if one wishes to do research. Not everyone has the resources that would enable them to buy and download electronic books and the WTS does not require or recommend that one take on the expense associated with the acquisition of such electronic information, but it tries to provide as many quotations from such source material in the articles it publishes.
@djeggnog wrote:
Jehovah's Witnesses aren't sure how long each of the creative days or "epochs" were, for it's possible that each of them were 10,000 years in length or longer. We had only speculated that they may have been 7,000 years in length, but the Bible is silent as to what the length of these creative days were.
@The Finger wrote:
Maybe what you said in another thread is true? and you have many more years of preaching left.
@djeggnog wrote:
[W]hat you quoted is confusing for it was something I stated in the "water canopy" thread, which doesn't belong in this thread. The topic here is supposed to be about 1914, and the succession of all of those "Maybe..." statements in your post aren't questions, but meaningless ponderables. I'd really like to see this topic move forward, and discuss the 1914 issue that is the topic of this thread.
@The Finger wrote:
Well i think it does.
I'm moving on.
@The Finger wrote:
Maybe Adams creation date is wrong?
@djeggnog wrote:
Maybe.
@The Finger wrote:
Maybe the 7th creative day continues on after the thousand year reign of Christ?
@djeggnog wrote:
Maybe.
@The Finger wrote:
Maybe the 7th creative day is not the same length as the other days?
@djeggnog wrote:
Maybe.
@The Finger wrote:
Maybe 1914 is not what JW say it is?
@djeggnog wrote:
Maybe.
@The Finger wrote:
It sounds as if you are unsure that you have observed the sign of Christ's presence of which you preach and therefore we are back to the title of the thread "Do JW's still believe in 1914?" I think you answered, Maybe.
I did answer with a "Maybe," because, like I stated above, the succession of all of these "Maybe..." statements in your post aren't questions, but meaningless ponderables. You question is different than the OP's question. Your question is "Do JWs still believe in 1914?" @lamallcool's question, however, is:
Do JWs believe in 1914?
I answered this question with my initial post to this thread by stating the following:
I would say that Jehovah's Witnesses believe not only in 1914, but in 1915, 1916, 1917, 1918, 1919 ... 2009, 2010 and 2011, since your question is rather vague. If you are asking whether Jehovah's Witnesses still believe and teach that the year 1914 is the year that marked the end of "the appointed times of the nations" to which Jesus refers at Luke 21:24, the so-called "Gentile times," I would then have to say "yes, we do."
Adding "still" to the question doesn't really affect the meaning of the question, so your question essentially becomes a ponderable and I don't regard your question as one that seeks a response different that the one I've already given. If you do not wish to read this thread, that is your choice, but I see no point in answering what is essentially the same question over and over again. Let me come back now and answer the question that you asked me earlier in your post:
I don't really follow your reasoning here.... Are you suggesting there needed to be a set amount of time?
I did answer your question in the affirmative, and you may recall that I go on to point to Daniel's prophecy, but I'll spell out here at least some of what it was I was saying to you when I pointed to Daniel's prophecy.
At Matthew 24:15, Jesus points to Daniel's prophecy and the gospel writer Matthew includes the words "let the reader use discernment," so that we might comprehend the significance of what Jesus is saying as he goes on just six verses down, at Matthew 24:21, to say: "For then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world's beginning until now, no, nor will occur again."
When you were all accusatory about what you recall being taught by Jehovah's Witnesses back in the 1970s, you indicated that it was your belief that "right up until the spring of 1975, there was surely time for these events to occur." So you would seem to be saying that you are of the opinion that if no one wasn't declaring "Peace and security!" then that's just too bad. "There was surely time for these events to occur." Is that it? Forget all about Paul's prophetic words at 1 Thessalonians 5:3 and Daniel's prophetic words in Daniel chapters 10-12, is that it? Let's just consider for a moment what Daniel's prophecy states at Daniel 12:1:
And during that time Mi'cha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people. And there will certainly occur a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, every one who is found written down in the book.
Written down in what "book"? We read at Malachi 3:16 the following:
At that time those in fear of Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance began to be written up before him for those in fear of Jehovah and for those thinking upon his name.
So when Michael, the great prince, stands up -- I assume that you discern that this reference is to the Lord Jesus Christ who receives kingdom rulership from his heavenly Father, Jehovah, who is referred to as the "Ancient of Days" in Daniel's prophecy at Daniel 7:13, 14 -- you are telling me here that you cannot discern that "there will certainly occur a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time" and "there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world's beginning until now, no, nor will occur again" are essentially the same words used by Jesus at Matthew 24:21?
Tell me this, @The Finger: Are you only hearing about this aspect of Daniel's prophecy or about what Jesus prophesied for the very first time as I mention it here? If not, then was it even reasonable for you to have expected Armageddon to have occurred before the "time of distress" or "great tribulation" had occurred? And just who are Daniel's people, the ones that would "escape" this "time of distress" or"great tribulation," the ones whose names would be "found written down in the book"? These escaped ones would be "the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens" (Hebrews 12:23), the anointed remnant that would still be here on earth and "escape" when this "time of distress" or"great tribulation" occurred. So are you telling me that you understood that this "sudden destruction" -- Armageddon -- was to occur before this "time of distress" or"great tribulation" occurred? One can discern from reading 1 Thessalonians 5:3 that the great tribulation must occur before Armageddon, but maybe in 1975, you didn't discern this. You expect Bible prophecy to be ignored, skipped over, and this is why you have asked me the question:
Are you suggesting there needed to be a set amount of time?
My answer to your question is "yes."
In this post, I referred you to Bible prophecy, to what Daniel wrote, to what Paul wrote, to what Jesus is quoted as saying, but what possible difference does it make to you what the Bible says if you do not believe in God and you do not believe the Bible is God's word? Unless you should return to Jehovah -- and I'm being serious here -- the "sudden destruction" mentioned by Paul at 1 Thessalonians 5:3 is going to impact you personally: You are going to perish just like the light in a fully lit room is extinguished when the light switch that controls it is turned to the "Off" position.
Now no sane person wants to die, but if we should die before Armageddon for any reason -- you are walking near a tall building when the metal bucket that one of the window washers was using falls from the scaffolding, fatally striking you in the head, having your light extinguished -- consider Jesus, who is in control of turning on the "light switches" of those that have died from the founding of the world, being told by Jehovah when the resurrection is underway as to you: "Not that light switch; just skip that one."
@shepherd:
You are right, I should just skip over your posts, and will in future......
Ok.
@DagothUr:
Djeggnog, you said the JW consider a creation day to be longer that 7000 years. How about 1.900.000.000? This is certainly longer and closer to the age of the Universe as measured by scientists...if Satan has not tampered with their gadgets....
"The age of the Universe"? Ok. I'll humor you here. Maybe what I'm about to say here will encourage you to take a few courses in math and geology (for starters). Geologists have estimated the age of the universe to be some 13.7 billion years old, so were I to divide the age of the universe by seven, I'd get a number like 1,957,142,857 years for each creative day. Now your number -- 1.9 billion -- seems to me to be based on the universe being 13.3 billion years old, which is fine. However, the seven creative days have nothing at all to do with when the earth was created, for according to Genesis 1:2, "the earth proved to be formless and waste," meaning that it was already in existence when the first of these creative days began. You're at a different ballpark (Yankee Stadium), and we really need to get in the right ballpark (Dodger Stadium), ok?
Geologists have calculated the age of the earth to be some 4.5682 billion years old, so were I to divide the age of the earth by seven, I'd get a number like 652,600,000 for each creative day, but the Cambrian Period, which is estimated to have been somewhere from 490 to 540 million years ago, is the Period which paleontologists have concluded that all life first exploded on the scene, so instead of 653 million years, let's go with the lower number and say that each creative day is 540 million years. Why not? We're just being silly, aren't we? This being the case, then plant life, such as grass, vegetation and fruit trees, which the Bible says came into existence on the third creative day, all had to have come into existence before the fourth creative day began.
Now I'm going to just include the 1,000-year reign of Christ to the seventh creative day and count back from it to the fourth creative day, which are four periods of 540 million years each, and this would mean that the third creative day began 2.7 billion years ago and ended 2.16 billion years ago. But here's the problem as I see it: Paleontologists say that all life exploded on the scene during the Cambrian Period, which is a difference of 2.16 billion years.
Please explain why no such life has been found dating as far back as 2.16 billion years (and be thankful that I didn't use your ridiculous 1.9 billion number).
@Anony Mous:
You are definitely not keeping up to date with the current WTBTS doctrine.
I suppose you could be right. I may not be as bright as you, but I do the best I can.
You are wrong on many counts and are stuck in their 80's-90's doctrine, go read your most recent pubs to see what the length of a creation day is. You're also mixing up your dates and your facts.
I don't read the recent publications; I author them.
JW's do indeed claim that they were chosen from among the rest of Christianity and that Jesus did an inspection between 1914 and 1919 (the date which they got out of prison for sedition, not because of religious persecution as they sometimes claim) when Rutherford believed he and LATER by extension the GB was chosen by God to lead the WTBTS. No biblical proof other than 'this is a fulfillment of prophecy so-and-so' is ever claimed.
Do you mean "by Judge Rutherford"? That "no biblical proof other than 'this is a fulfillment of prophecy so-and-so' is ever claimed" by Judge Rutherford? I've never met the man, so I cannot know what he claimed to believe or what "biblical proof" he offered for his beliefs lest I read what books he authored to compare what things he believed to be true when he was alive with what things I believe to be true today, and I've read quite a few books, and can tell you that my beliefs today would trump his beliefs then. I imagine that I could make a list of all of the things Rutherford wrote during his lifetime which I know today to be erroneous beliefs on his part, that is, if I had any interest in picking his carcass clean, like a buzzard.
In the 1800s, Naturalist Charles Darwin knew not a thing about DNA, so my beliefs in 2011 would trump his beliefs when he died in 1882. But I don't think it reasonable to expect someone that may have lived 50 years ago to know things that came to be known 50 years later, so Rutherford died, what, 69 years ago, and Darwin died 129 years ago, before certain truths came to light, and you believe one should hold against them the fact that, before they died, they did not know certain truths? When someone in your own family or one of your friends or neighbors dies, do you tend to harp upon the faults, shortcomings and imperfections that you observed they had in life? Or do you tend to just harp upon the faults, shortcomings and imperfections of dead people that you didn't even know in life?
Hardly anyone would say that German Chancellor Adolf Hitler was a good man; I believe he had something to do with Mein Kaupf, did he not? I believe Hitler died in 1945, and I'm sure you would agree that whatever faults, shortcomings and imperfections Rutherford possessed would pale in significance to those possessed by Hitler, right? Did Rutherford murder anyone? I believe, in contrast with Rutherford, that Hitler was responsible for the murder of millions of people. Let me ask you this: Do you also harp upon Hitler's faults, shortcomings and imperfections, the way you do here regarding Rutherford's faults, shortcomings and imperfections, like some kind of religious crusade, but in connection with Hitler's 1925 "classic," Mein Kaupf?
1935 is when they indeed identified the 'Great Crowd' as there were more than 144,000 followers and they said until recently that then their number was sealed.
So...?
As far as 1975 goes, the WTBTS even published a half-assed apology for it, they definitely implied it and it was as much as gospel when it was said on the stage.
What did the WTBTS publish that you found to be "a half-assed apology" for 1975, and for what did the WTBTS need to apologize?
There is even a book published by the WTBTS from back then that has now all but disappeared out of their libraries and is not available on the Watchtower Library that shows the calculation to which they showed around 1975 would be the end.
I take it that you are referring to the "Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God" book. As it happens, I have a copy of this book. Over the years, I've heard sinister things asserted about the "Life Everlasting" book, but, if you don't mind, I'm going to ask you to give me the page number(s) where Jehovah's Witnesses predicted Armageddon would arrive in or "around" the year 1975. Is it conspiratorial that the "Life Everlasting" book is not among the many other books found in the Watchtower Library (WTLIB)?
Do you also think it to be part of some conspiracy that the WTLIB doesn't include any of the magazine articles that were published in the Awake! magazine prior to 1970 while it does include Watchtower articles dating back to 1950? On what basis did you conclude that the "Life Everlasting" book "disappeared"? The "Life Everlasting" book was published in 1966, and the "Things in Which it is Impossible for God to Lie" book was published in 1965, a year before the "Life Everlasting" book was published, "'Babylon the Great Has Fallen!' God's Kingdom Rules!" book was published in 1963, three years before the "Life Everlasting" book was published. Both of these books went "poof!" as well. Neither of them are in the WTLIB, so is there something sinister about these not being included, too?
"This generation" has changed meaning different times in WTBTS eschatology as you may well know and as you also can read in WT publication has been used several times to calculate an absolute end from 1914 onwards. When Jesus said those words, they came true in Jerusalem as 'this generation' in all meanings (classic and extended) given to it did NOT pass away by the destruction of Jerusalem. However if JW's believe that 1914 is the beginning of 'This Generation', then where is the end of 'This Generation'?
Why are you concerned about "WTBTS eschatology" if you are not one of Jehovah's Witnesses? Why do you care what it is Jehovah's Witnesses are teaching others regarding the meaning of Jesus' words at Matthew 24:34 or anything else that Jehovah's Witnesses teach? Are you not concerned about what Baptists are teaching regarding the trinity doctrine? What about what the Episcopalians are teachings regarding gay marriage? Do you frequently post messages of dissent against the religious teachings of any Christian denomination other than Jehovah's Witnesses? If not, why do you think us to be so deserving of getting such love from you and not the Episcopalians or the Baptists or even the Catholics?
Do JWs still believe in 1914: No. Most Witnesses don't even know how to explain it (as djeggnog shows).
Is that right? How didn't I demonstrate my inability to explain the year 1914? In one of my posts to @shepherd in this particular thread, I wrote:
If you believe as do so many folks bent on proving 607 BC to be totally wrong that Jerusalem was destroyed in the year 587 BC, I challenge you to prove this without contradicting the Bible!
This was in response to a serious of comments that @shepherd made regarding the inability of Jehovah's Witnesses -- according to @shepherd -- to explain 1914, and just one of his rather interesting comments regarding this was the following:
As anyone who is not brainwashed knows, 607 is the wrong date, but that does not stop millions of JWs from accepting it.
Maybe you missed this one. In response to one of @palmtree67's posts, I wrote:
Are you suggesting that Jehovah's Witnesses should abandon all of their beliefs with respect to the year 1914, which would mean their giving up on 607 BC, on their interpretation of the "seven times" of Daniel 4:25, on the 2,520-year span of years separating the beginning of the appointed times of the nations and the fulfillment of these "seven times"?
Maybe you missed this one, too.
Without further ado, @Anony Mous, I'm going to now explain the significance of 1914 and 607 BC -- lay it all out for you here -- so that you can throw darts at it, ok? It's a lengthy explanation, so that I will repeat, where necessary, things I may have stated earlier so that you do not need to keep scrolling up in order to follow the explanation. I'm dictating some of this, and cutting and pasting some parts of this, but I'll get around to proofreading this later to clean-up any date or scriptural citation errors, if any.
At Luke 21:24, we read Jesus' words in which he makes specific mention of "the appointed times of the nations": "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled." It was in Jerusalem that kings in the royal line of David were said to sit representatively on Jehovah's throne, but Jesus says that "Jerusalem would be trampled on by the nations" until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled," indicating that Jerusalem was being "trampled on" at the time that Jesus spoke these words and that this "trampling" would continue until the fulfillment of these "appointed times of the nations."
Jesus' mention of these "appointed times of the nations" or "times of the Gentiles" (KJV) harken back to the "seven times" of Daniel's prophecy in which the prophet records the words of an angelic "watcher" from heaven, who commanded the chopping down of an immense tree that had been "visible to the extremity of the whole earth," whose "rootstock" or tree stump had been left in the earth bound with iron and copper, so that "seven times" might pass over this tree stump before it was loosed from that which bound it, and thus prevented this tree from growing, "to the intent that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that to the one whom he wants to, he gives it and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind." (Daniel 4:11, 15-17)
In the Bible, trees are often used to represent rulership. For example, at Ezekiel 17:1-24, prophetic reference is there made to the ruler that sat on Jehovah's throne in Jerusalem in the kingdom of Judah, "the treetop of the cedar [tree]," whereby the first of two eagles, Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar, plucks off "the top of the young shoots," King Jehoiachin, so that he becomes an exile in Babylon, at which time Babylon's ruler puts Zedekiah on the throne in Jerusalem. But King Zedekiah rebels against Babylon so that he allies himself with the second of the two eagles, the Egyptian ruler, so that Zedekiah is taken captive to Babylon, rendered blind and dies. (Maybe you already know this part of the story.)
Now while a portion of this prophecy underwent fulfillment, in this prophecy Jehovah plucks off "a tender one" from this cedar tree, which "twig" represents the Messianic king, and goes on to transplant this "twig" upon "a high and lofty mountain," that is, upon heavenly Mount Zion, where this "tender one" grows into "a majestic cedar." This prophecy of Ezekiel's has had complete fulfillment in that Jesus was enthroned in the kingdom of the heavens as God's Messianic king in 1914. Not many people are interested in Bible prophecy, but I'm just pointing out to you that the reference in Daniel's prophecy to this "tree" that was cut down here is to rulership.
Just as is the case with many Bible prophecies, the interruption of Nebuchadnezzar's rulership for a period of time by his madness as represented by the vision of the tree being cut down was cut down for "seven times" requires that one learn what each of these "seven times" represent in the Bible, and by examining what God has provided for us in His word, we are able to do just that. At Revelation 12:6, 14, we note, first, that God's "woman" flees from the dragon/serpent into the wilderness, where she is fed for "a thousand two hundred and sixty days" and, second, that the length of time in which God's "woman" is fed there in the wilderness is expressed in a different way, as "a time and times and half a time."
It is evident that if a "time" (1), "times" (2 x 1 or 2) and "half a time" (1/2) or 3-1/2 times equals 1,260 days that, when 1,260 days is divided by 3-1/2, then each of these "times" would have to be equal to 360 days (for 360 x 3.5 = 1,260). Since these "seven times" that Nebuchadnezzar's rulership would be interrupted would be twice as long as this, then it would be 3.5 x 2, or 7 (times) x 360 (days) = 2,520 (days) that this angelic "watcher" was informing Nebuchadnezzar that he would be removed from his throne, which prophecy was fulfilled in that for seven lunar years Nebuchadnezzar's rulership, as represented by that tree, was essentially "chopped down," and after "seven times" had passed, he was loosed from what had bound him (his madness) and restored as Babylon's ruler.
Remember though that this prophecy about the tree had prophetic significance though, for Daniel 4:17 indicates that its "intent" was for the purpose "that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that to the one whom he wants to, he gives it and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind." Jesus was that "lowliest one of mankind" that it was God's intent to set up as ruler over "the kingdom of mankind" after the prophetic "seven times" has passed because, first of all, for "the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind," and, second of all, the Most High delegates rulership over the kingdom of mankind 'to the one whom he wants to give it.'
So when Babylon led King Zedekiah in bondage back to Babylon and destroyed Jerusalem in 607 BC, Ezekiel's prophecy at Ezekiel 21:26, 27, then came to be fulfilled with regard to someone sitting representatively on Jehovah's throne in Jerusalem: "Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. This will not be the same. Put on high even what is low, and bring low even the high one. A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I shall make it. As for this also, it will certainly become no one’s until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him."
Also, in Ezekiel's prophecy, we are able to ascertain that these "seven times" were not 2,520 literal days, for we know that they were prophetic days in that at Ezekiel 4:4-6, when foretelling the number of years when the kingdoms of Israel and Judah would carry the error due for their respective houses, for the house of Israel, God laid upon it 390 days, and the house of Judah, 40 days, but God specifically stated that "a day for a year, a day for a year, is what I have given you."
What this means is that whereas Nebuchadnezzar's madness lasted for a duration of 2,520 days, the prophetic length of the Gentile nations' trampling upon Jerusalem would last for a duration of 2,520 years, and these "seven times" to which Jesus is actually referring at Luke 21:24 began to be counted in 607 BC when God's rulership in the earth had been interrupted by the Gentile world power of Babylon and this interruption continued through the Gentile world powers of Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome to the Great Britain and American dual world power until 1914, exactly 2,520 years when Jerusalem began to be trampled on.
Now 2 Kings 25:8 informs us that it was during Nebuchadnezzar's 19th accession year, that is to say, his 18th regnal year, which would have been in the year 607 BC, that Jerusalem was destroyed and left desolate by Babylonian forces, so this 2,520-year period or "seven times" would begin with this destruction of Jerusalem for it was from 607 BC that no king sat on God's throne in Jerusalem, God's rulership having been interrupted by the trampling upon it by the Gentile king of Babylon. Jeremiah foretold that it would be for a period of 70 years that God's people would be held as captives to Babylon, which 70-year period was confirmed in Daniel's prophecy. (Jeremiah 29:10; Daniel 9:1, 2)
Hence, counting back 70 years from when the Jews returned to their homeland in 537 BC, we arrive at the year 607 BC, the date when Nebuchadnezzar, during his 18th regnal year (his 19th accession year) destroyed Jerusalem, bringing to an end the line of Davidic kings that sat representatively on God's throne in Jerusalem.
At Jeremiah 46:2, we learn that it was during the fourth year of the reign of King Jehoiakim's reign that the king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar (Nebuchadrezzar), was victorious over the king of Egypt, Pharaoh Necho; this was in the year 625 BC.
The next year, in 624 BC, Nebuchadnezzar officially ascended to the throne following his father's death, Nebuchadnezzar's first regnal year, which was his second accession year, and in his fourth regnal year as king, Nebuchadnezzar made Jehoiakim his vassal king; this was during Jehoiakim's seventh year in 621 BC. However, Jehoiakim's rebellion resulted in Jerusalem being besieged by Babylon and in Jehoiakim's death, so that his son, Jehoiachin, then became Babylon's vassal king during Nebuchadnezzar's seventh regnal year which ended in Nisan 617 BC.
It was then that Nebuchadnezzar made Jehoichin's uncle Mattaniah his vassal king, changing his name to Zedekiah. However, it was during the ninth year of Zedekiah's reign in 609 BC, Nebuchadnezzar's 16th regnal year, that Zedekiah rebelled against Babylon and attempted to ally Judah with Egypt against Babylon, so that the siege against Judah was momentarily halted due to the report regarding Egypt. (Jeremiah 37:5).
But in 607 BC, during Zedekiah's 11th year, Nebuchadnezzar's 18th regnal year, his 19th accession year, Jerusalem was again besieged by Babylon, Jerusalem's wall was successfully breached, and Zedekiah's sons were all slaughtered as Zedekiah watched after which he himself was blinded, bound and led prisoner to Babylon where he died. (2 Kings 25:1, 2, 8-10)
Now those who advocate the 587 BC date insist that Jerusalem was destroyed then, but Jerusalem was actually destroyed some 20 years before 587 BC in the year 607 BC, and the only people that believe otherwise are those that reject the fact that Jerusalem and its temple were destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar through his chief of the bodyguard, Nebuzaradan, in 607 BC. They refuse to believe what the Bible clearly teaches as having occurred after Nebuchadnezzar's third siege on Jerusalem that the prophet Jeremiah and his secretary Baruch were permitted to remain with the poor in Judah (Jeremiah 40:1-5) under the provisional government of Gedaliah, who had been appointed governor by Nebuchadnezzar, in the fifth lunar month of Ab, while the rest were just two months before God's prophecy regarding the 70-year desolation of Judah actually underwent fulfillment. Two months!
During these two months, Gedaliah was assassinated, so that the men that were left over in the province of Judah were now in fear of Babylon and eventually decided to flee the land of Judah to go to Egypt, dragging Jeremiah and his secretary with them. This last occurred during the seventh lunar month of Tishri, as the festival of ingathering had approached, but there were no longer a temple in Jerusalem, and now there were no people in the land nor any domestic animal. The "seven times" of Daniel's prophecy had now begun! (Daniel 4:25)
It was in 609 BC during Zedekiah's ninth year, Nebuchadnezzar's 16th regnal year, his 17th accession year, that Jerusalem was besieged by Babylon for the third time, and after two years, during Zedekiah's 11th year, Nebuchadnezzar's 18th regnal year, his 19th accession year, a breach was made in Jerusalem's wall, which caused Zedekiah and his men to flee Jerusalem only to be overtaken by Nebuchadnezzar in Jericho, and Zedekiah was then blinded and led captive to Babylon. (2 Kings 25:1,2, 4, 8-10)
In 625 BC, it was crown prince Nebuchadnezzar, who had led Babylonian forces to victory over Egyptian Pharaoh Necho at Carchemish during Josiah's son, Jehoiakim's fourth year, that he became king, for it was then that his father, King Nebopolassar, died. (Jeremiah 46:2) However, it was in 602 BC, during Nebuchadnezzar's 23rd regnal year, or some five years after the desolation of the land of Judah, that Nebuzaradan took those Jews that had fled to surrounding territories into exile at Babylon. (Jeremiah 52:30)
Now the "good word" that Jehovah gave to Jeremiah was that He would turn his attention to His people after "the fulfilling of seventy years at Babylon," and I believe the land of Judah lay desolate just as Jehovah had foretold by the prophet Jeremiah "until the land had paid off its sabbaths ... to fulfill seventy years," whose prophecy Daniel recounts. (Jeremiah 29:10; 2 Chronicles 36:20, 21; Daniel 9:2) You are free to believe that this 70-year period began in 605 BC as do those who hold to the year 587 BC as the year when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem, knowing that historians all point to 539 BC as being the year when Babylon fell to the Persians, when Cyrus freed the Jewish exiles from captivity and let them return to Judah to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.
The 587 BC advocates cannot recognize 587 BC with 539 BC, because it isn't possible to find 70 years between 587 BC and 539 BC, for one would be 22 years shy of fulfilling those 70 years that God declared the land must lay desolate to pay off its sabbaths.
The Bible clearly does speak of 70 years of servitude to King Nebuchadnezzar, but Jewish servitude didn't begin until Nebuchadnezzar's seventh regnal year in 618 BC. (Jeremiah 25:11) More importantly though, it was during Nebuchadnezzar's 18th regnal year in 607 BC when Jerusalem was destroyed and Zedekiah, who had fled Jerusalem, was overtaken at Jericho, blinded and then led captive to Babylon.
While Jeremiah 25:11 does speak of "these nations" being forced to serve King Nebuchadnezzar for "seventy years," but it was not until 607 BC that Judah began to lie desolate just as Jehovah had foretold would occur by His prophet Jeremiah, some 11 years after the servitude of "these nations" in the Syria-Palestine region had already begun in 618 BC. It was only then -- in 607 BC -- that "the fulfilling of seventy years at Babylon" by the Jews began, during which "the land [would pay] off its sabbaths ... to fulfill seventy years." (Jeremiah 29:10; 2 Chronicles 36:21)
Scripture does not prove that 587 BC was the date when Jeremiah's prophecy regarding the 70 years of the Jewish exile in Babylon (2 Chronicles 36:21), nor is 587 BC the date when the 70 years of servitude by the nations (Jeremiah 25:11) began either. Put another way, the reason you will be unable to reconcile 587 BC with 607 BC is because (1) these two dates cannot be reconciled with one another and (2) you are confusing Jeremiah's prophecy at Jeremiah 25:11 with Jeremiah's prophecy at 2 Chronicles 36:21. There are two (2) other points I want to make here.
It is claimed by some that it is during Nebuchadnezzar's accession year in 605 BC that many of the Jewish captives first became exiles in Babylon, so their 70 years of servitude would end in 535 BC, and they speculate that it must have taken a few years before Nebuchadnezzar finally got around to freeing the Jewish captives so that they could return to Judah. Ok. But, again, what was Nebuchadnezzar's accession year?
It was in 625 BC that crown prince Nebuchadrezzar led his Babylonian forces to victory over the Egyptians at Carchemish. At Jeremiah 46:2, "Nebuchadrezzar" is Nebuchadnezzar, and note that Jeremiah refers to Nebuchadnezzar here as "the king of Babylon." We know that Nebuchadnezzar had become king in this year because Jeremiah also tells us at Jeremiah 46:2 that it was during the "fourth year" of Jehoiakim's reign that Nebuchadrezzar [Nebuchadnezzar] defeats "Pharaoh Necho the king of Egypt." It was in that year that Nebuchadnezzar's father, Nebopolassar, dies, so that 625 BC became Nebuchadnezzar's accession year.
Flavius Josephus indicates in his work, "Antiquities of the Jews," Volume X, vi, 1, that in his victory at Carchemish, Nebuchadnezzar conquered the entire Syria-Palestine region, "excepting Judea," which poses a problem for those that would make the claim that the Bible is wrong and that the 70 years of servitude began in 625 BC during Nebuchadnezzar's accession year, and according to Jeremiah 52:28-30, Jewish servitude didn't begin until Nebuchadnezzar's seventh regnal year (618 BC) when he took 3,023 Jews into exile; it was during Nebuchadnezzar's 18th regnal year (607 BC) when Jerusalem was destroyed and Zedekiah, who had fled Jerusalem, was overtaken at Jericho, blinded and then led captive to Babylon among the 832 Jews that had been taken captive by Nebuchadnezzar, and it was during his 23rd regnal year (602 BC) when 745 Jews were captured by Nebuchchadnezzar's chief of the bodyguard (Nebuzaradan) from Egypt and from other nations. Not referring to the Jews alone, but Jeremiah has foretold that all of "these nations [would] have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years." (Jeremiah 25:11)
Now Josephus agrees with what the Bible says about the 70 years, but there's this Babylonian priest named Berossus, who makes other claims that contradict what Josephus wrote, saying, for example, that Nebuchadnezzar's battle at Carchemish took place in 605 BC, claiming 605 BC as being Nebuchadnezzar's accession year, but whether you agree with Berossus or Josephus, I go with what the Bible says, and believe that the 70 years began in during Nebuchadnezzar's 18th year in 607 BC and ended 70 years later in 537 BC, when the year after Cyrus' first accession year , which would be in 539 BC, his first regnal year began the following year in 538 BC, when he issued his decree that freed the Jews from captivity and permitted them to return to Judah by "the seventh month" in 537 BC. (Ezra 3:1) It was "in the first year of Cyrus the king of Persia, that Jehovah's word by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished," regarding the 70 years, which, again, would have been in 538 BC, that "the king of Persia" issued his decree that permitted the Jews to "go up" to Judah. (2 Chronicles 36:22, 23)
Whether you add an additional 20 years, which would take us back to 607 BC, you would still be completely overlooking the fact that 607 BC was not Nebuchadnezzar's accession year, but was his 18th regnal year, or don't you get that yet? If 607 was Nebuchadnezzar's 18th year, this means that he had already been king of Babylon since his victory over Pharaoh Necho at Carchemish in 625 BC, or for an additional 18 years, or don't you get this? This being the case, you would essentially be saying that Babylon only ruled for 70 years, when the fact is that Babylon had been a world empire for 86 years until 539 BC, when Babylon fell to the Persians. That's point #1.
Last point: You stated that "Scripture proves that 587BCE was the date, without any secular dating." My impulse is to ask you where in Scripture -- book, chapter and verse -- would one find this date, 587 BC? But I'm not asking you this question. I know you can figure that out all by yourself, but I'm telling you so that there is no misunderstanding: Learn from me because I know what I'm talking about here. That's point #2.
Earlier in this thread, I mentioned something about a rock, a stone known as "the Nabonidus Chronicle." There is this rock that was discovered in Baghdad, Iraq, back in 1879. Maybe you've heard of it. In the event you have never heard of it, this particular stone document is of historic significance in that it memorializes the date when Babylon was captured by King Cyrus of Persia. Nebuchadnezzar was Nabonidus' father-in-law’s, and Nabonidus was Belshazzar's father, Nebuchadnezzar’s grandson, and Belshazzar is the one to whom Daniel refers at Daniel 5:22.
According to "Assyrian and Babylonian Chronicles," pp. 109, 110, the Nabonidus Chronicle that is written in Babylonian cuneiform script states concerning the night of Babylon's fall that "[i]n the month of Tashritu, ... [t]he 16th day, Gobryas (Ugbaru), the governor of Gutium and the army of Cyrus entered Babylon without battle." Consequently, we know the exact date when Belshazzar was killed by the Medo-Persian forces (Daniel 5:30) that came against Babylon that night: October 5, 539 BC.
It is by means of this date and other secular dates, along with Scripture, that we are able to easily and accurately calculate and verify the dates when various events recorded in the Bible occurred, dates such as the date when the flood occurred (2370 BC), the dates when Abraham was born (2018 BC) and died (1843 BC), the dates when Solomon's temple was built (1027 BC) and destroyed (607 BC), the date when Zerubbabel's temple was built (516 BC) and the date when Herod's temple renovation work was commenced (around 18 BC), and then destroyed (70 AD).
If one has an accurate knowledge of the Bible, an aptitude for math and some knowledge of when certain secular events occurred in history, one can deduce many of the dates to which the Bible refers, such as the date when "the [seven] appointed times of the nations" that Daniel mentions at Daniel 4:25 and to which Jesus refers at Luke 21:24 would undergo fulfillment, which date is 1914, some 2,520 years after Solomon's temple was destroyed in 607 BC. This is easy to comprehend when one stops resisting what the holy spirit says.
@poopsiecakes:
[Y]ou've been exposed to many many people here who have shown you the errors in your beliefs and whether you like it or not your brain is working it out.
No one here has shown me the errors in my beliefs. Who are these "many many people" to whom you refer, @poopsiecakes? What are these errors that these people to whom you refer have shown me? Please be specific for I've seen no such post.
Stop fighting it already and realize that you've been lied to so that you can really start living.
Stop fighting what? Who was it that lied to me? What lie did he, she or they tell me that is preventing me from living?
There's no shame in admitting it.
Admitting what?
@Morbidzbaby:
@djeggnogg, when the Watchtower is pretty much the only ones claiming 607 and all other scholars agree it was 586/587, then yeah, they're wrong...which makes 1914 wrong, which makes 1919 wrong, etc etc.
Ok.
@andrekish:
Many people here clearly have differing viewpoints and that is wonderful....
Different viewpoints connotes disunity of thought, which is never going to be a good thing... ever.
I have seen Witnesses reading and studying, as you have said, the Watchtower and other WBTS publications. I has occurred to me at times that this maybe slightly [restrictive] and slightly at odds with the recommendations to check things out. I have a feeling that not all Witnesses do this as an [independent] check of what they have been told, using external sources of information.
Not everyone has the time to do extensive research, and so it is a help to those Jehovah's Witnesses that cannot do so to be able to find what they need pre-researched for them in our publications, but this kind of research will limit the amount of research one does to what someone else has researched. This is not what Jehovah's Witnesses ideally advocate, but any citations to any source material that are included in our publications can be used later in more thoroughly researching the context of anything quoted in our literature.
It could be that the folks running the organisation are acting a little selfishly and not always entirely honestly.
Who do you believe is running our organization? The governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses is not running this organization on its own, so who do you believe is running our organization besides the governing body? If everyone that is currently sitting on the governing body should become incapacitated in some way, who do you believe would be responsible for running our organization? Many of the people on JWN say some of the most ridiculous things that I have ever heard anyone say, but please think about this for a moment: If something happens to those taking the lead at Microsoft, is that the end of Microsoft? If something should happen to those taking the lead at Apple, does this spell the end of Apple? The governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses is taking the lead in overseeing the preaching work that Jehovah's Witnesses are doing worldwide, but it does not run this organization alone. Please do not buy into any of the things that you have read some of the most prolific among us saying. They are, as I said, ridiculous.
"In an internal document, the WTBTS describes its policy as a "theocratic war strategy". It claims: "In time of spiritual warfare it is proper to misdirect the enemy by hiding the truth. It is done unselfishly; it does not harm anyone; on the contrary it does much good."
If the above quotation in the Guardian is correct....
Do you tend to believe everything that you read in print? I hope not, but I realize some people are given to believe some of the most outrageous things imaginable, some people are the willing prey of conspiracy theorists, some people are gullible, some people are wise. It is for this very reason that the apostle Paul urged Christians to "keep strict watch that how [we] walk is not as unwise but as wise persons, buying out the opportune time for [ourselves]." (Ephesians 5:15, 16) Why was Paul giving such counsel to Christians? A hint can be found in what @yadda yadda wrote in this thread:
It is only a matter of time before his conviction in many of the JW's absurd and unscriptural speculative creeds disintegrates. Apostate websites will always do what they do: destroy your faith in the organisation and its leadership.
This is why: "Because the days are wicked." (Ephesians 5:16)
@djeggnog
