A reason christs ransom makes no sense to me

by Aussie Oz 50 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Aussie Oz
    Aussie Oz

    Do you remember the old jeff bridges film ''the last starman''?

    basic theme was an extra terestrial energy life transmogrified into a human and impregnated a woman with a seed that would become the savior of humanity.

    Hollywood is an old hand at using good v evil sort of messages that have ideoligical ties to the bible and the 'need' for mankind to be saved from themselves.

    What gets me about this particular film is that the savior to come was there for all humanity. No conditions were placed on how many from what nations could benefit, nor was salvation only for those who 'believed' or were smart enough to read visions or hidden messages etc. Humanity was simply given a future gift that was unconditional.

    And that brings me to what i see as the problem with the whole bible message and the 'sacrifice' of the jewish messiah reject. God, jesus or whatever name you like to use, could have simply done the same thing surely. But no, this one was apparently sent for a select few who could nut out riddles and get the hope only that they might benefit.

    Maybe some would say this is too simplistic and fails to take into account lots of little things like universal rule. But i really beleive that a god that actually cared about every single life on this planet could have provided a person that would have turned out to be so unique (Jesus was not) that all people hearts would have been turned. And just in case anyone tried the old kill him/her, they could easily have been immortal.

    I am not an atheist, i am a Deist

    oz

  • losthobbit
    losthobbit

    Of course. The only reason I can think for anyone to have to tell you to "believe" and "have faith" in something, or else die, is to scare you into believing something for which there is no evidence, because it is not true.

    Deist Oz... tell me about this god you believe in... what's he like, and what does he do? What is his goal?

  • Joey Jo-Jo
    Joey Jo-Jo

    there is proof of an historical Jesus but no proof of an historical messiah, we can never be certain but one thing is true, if you read from genesis to matthew you see that God changes his mind on things.

  • transhuman68
    transhuman68

    After all those prophecies Jesus fulfilled, and all the miracles he did, and you still don’t believe, Oz? How can you be like that?

  • ProdigalSon
    ProdigalSon

    They took ancient myths that were conveying profound truths and turned them into a historical figure. Why? If we should look within for the Christ and follow Jesus' path in dying on the cross (eliminating egos), we ourselves become Christs. That wouldn't be good for the so-called shepherds if the sheep found out they were potential gods and could read the Bible on their own with the proper wisdom and understanding, to awaken consciousness and become gods. So they twisted the story to say that the mere belief in the sacrifice of a historical figure was enough to "save" you. What they don't want us to know is that when we die we all go to the same place, it's just a matter of how much we have progressed in our life experience that determines where we go from there. In other words, if you screw up, you get left back, and have to do the grade all over again. A bit of a disappointment, but life goes on and there's no "eternal destruction", except for your egos that you really don't want anyway. It can be a bit painful to get rid of them, but that's what Jesus meant when he said to pick up your cross and deny yourself. Loving others and loving yourself equates to a higher vibration and they key to ascension.

    Here's an excerpt from the last chapter I read in Blavatsky's "The Christian Scheme".....

    http://www.blavatsky.net/magazine/theosophy/ww/additional/christianity/Jesus-Logos-Christos.html

    IT is a most suggestive fact that there is not a word in the so-called sacred Scriptures to show that Jesus was actually regarded as a God by his disciples. Neither before nor after his death did they pay him divine honors. Their relation to him was only that of disciples and "master;" by which name they addressed him, as the followers of Pythagoras and Plato addressed their respective masters before them. Whatever words may have been put into the mouths of Jesus, Peter, John, Paul, and others, there is not a single act of adoration recorded on their part, nor did Jesus himself ever declare his identity with his Father. He accused the Pharisees of stoning their prophets, not of deicide. He termed himself the son of God, but took care to assert repeatedly that they were all the children of God, who was the Heavenly Father of all. In preaching this, he but repeated a doctrine taught ages earlier by Hermes, Plato, and other philosophers. Strange contradiction! Jesus, whom we are asked to worship as the one living God, is found, immediately after his Resurrection, saying to Mary Magdalene: "I am not yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God!" (John 20:17.)

    Does this look like identifying with his Father? "My Father and your Father, my God and your God" implies, on his part, a desire to be considered on a perfect equality with his brethren -- nothing more. Theodoret writes: "The hæretics agree with us respecting the beginning of all things.... But they say there is not one Christ (God), but one above, and the other below. And this last formerly dwelt in many; but the Jesus, they at one time say is from God, at another they call him a SPIRIT." This Spirit is the Christos, the messenger of life, who is sometimescalled the Angel Gabriel (in Hebrew, the mighty one of God), and who took with the Gnostics the place of the Logos, while the Holy Spirit was considered Life. With the sect of the Nazarenes, though, the Spiritus, or Holy Ghost, had less honor. While nearly every Gnostic sect considered it a Female Power, whether they called it Binah, Sophia, the Divine Intellect, with the Nazarene sect it was the Female Spiritus, the astral light, the genetrix of all things of matter, the chaos in its evil aspect, made turbido by the Demiurge. At the creation of man, "it was light on the side of the FATHER, and it was light (material light) on the side of the MOTHER. And this is the 'two-fold man,'" says the Sohar. "That day (the last one) will perish the seven badly-disposed stellars, also the sons of man, who have confessed the Spiritus, the Messias (false), the Deus, and the MOTHER of the SPIRITUS shall perish."

    Jesus enforced and illustrated his doctrines with signs and wonders; and if we lay aside the claims advanced on his behalf by his deifiers, he did but what other kabalists did; and only they at that epoch, when, for two centuries the sources of prophecy had been completely dried up, and from this stagnation of public "miracles" had originated the skepticism of the unbelieving sect of the Sadducees. Describing the "heresies" of those days, Theodoret, who has no idea of the hidden meaning of the word Christos, the anointed messenger, complains that they (the Gnostics) assert that this Messenger or Delegatus changes his body from time to time, "and goes into other bodies, and at each time is differently manifested. And these (the overshadowed prophets) use incantations and invocations of various demons and baptisms in the confession of their principles."

    Neither in the Homilies nor any other early work of the apostles, is there anything to show that either of his friends and followers regarded Jesus as anything more than a prophet. The idea is as clearly established in the Clementines. Except that too much room is afforded to Peter to establish the identity of the Mosaic God with the Father of Jesus, the whole work is devoted to Monotheism. The author seems as bitter against Polytheism as against the claim to the divinity of Christ. He seems to be utterly ignorant of the Logos, and his speculation is confined to Sophia, the Gnostic wisdom. There is no trace in it of a hypostatic trinity, but the same overshadowing of the Gnostic "wisdom (Christos and Sophia) is attributed in the case of Jesus as it is in those of Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses. These personages are all placed on one level, called 'true prophets,' and the seven pillars of the world." More than that, Peter vehemently denies the fall of Adam, and with him, the doctrine of atonement, as taught by Christian theology, utterly falls to the ground, for he combats it as a blasphemy. Peter's theory of sin is that of the Jewish kabalists, and even, in a certain way, Platonic. Adam not only never sinned, but, "as a true prophet, possessed of the Spirit of God, which afterwards was in Jesus, could not sin." In short, the whole of the work exhibits the belief of the author in the kabalistic doctrine of permutation. The Kabala teaches the doctrine of transmigration of the spirit.

    "God's son" is the immortal spirit assigned to every human being. It is this divine entity which is the "only man," for the casket which contains our soul, and the soul itself, are but half-entities, and without its overshadowing both body and astral soul, the two are but an animal duad. It requires a trinity to form the complete "man," and allow him to remain immortal at every "re-birth," or revolutio, throughout the subsequent and ascending spheres, every one of which brings him nearer to the refulgent realm of eternal and absolute light.

  • tec
    tec

    If you're speaking about the ransom sacrifice according to WT theology, then I agree with you, it is very limiting.

    Other than that particular theology, not so much. There are no limitations. ...A great crowd that no one can count out of every nation and tribe; as well as the 144 000... as well as all those whose names are written in the book of life (sheep)

    It has been a while since I've seen Starman, but just because a child is given as a gift to the world, doesn't mean that the world will accept him or listen to him. You can't benefit from a gift that you reject. Think about how many of them wanted Starman, himself, dead.

    Tammy

  • undercover
    undercover

    Another reason why Christ's ransom makes no sense...

    As explained at the Memorial, Jesus perfect life was paid as ransom because of Adam's sin putting all mankind under the penalty of sin and death.

    The whole concept of Jesus death as a ransom is based on the belief that the Adam story is real and historical, which it clearly cannot be. The WTS official doctrine has Adam created 6,000some years ago. Science and archeology have proven that man has been on this planet for much, much longer. The evidence destroys the Adam myth.

    Take Adam out of the equation and what do you have? Nothing. No messiah. No ransom. No new covenant. Just a man being executed.

  • moshe
    moshe

    A-O & undercover, what you say makes sense. I have decided that we humans are pretty dumb animals when it comes to decoding religious mysteries. Most people are intellectually lazy and just go with the majority view when it comes to religion. Besides, not so long ago it was dangerous to your life to oppose mainstream religious dogma- and still is in some countries.

  • aSphereisnotaCircle
    aSphereisnotaCircle

    So who is holding humankind hostage?

    Who is requiring a ransom?

    And what kind of ransom is returned in three days? Doesn't that mean the ransom was not paid after all?

    Yeah, none of it makes sense.

  • Terry
    Terry

    The Bible God and His Plan are remarkably inefficient, time-consuming, byzantine, bizarre and wasteful for the end result.

    In the process of bringing salvation to man billions unnecessarily born in the first place are used as fire wood.

    Really, this sacred secret now revealed must have been designed by bureaucrats.......or......merely the product

    of syncretism layered on over the centuries.

    Take you pick.

    Salvation comes down to saying the magic word: JESUS as millions die in a completely deus ex machina technicolor finish.

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