A reason christs ransom makes no sense to me (page 4)

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God did not kill his Son. People killed His Son. God sent his Son for us, to show us the way to Life. He knew what would happen to Christ, yes, but that is not the same as causing it to happen. If it could have been any other way, then I believe it would have been...because Jesus asked His Father to take the cup away from Him, if possible. I might not understand everything, but I understand that much at least.

Yes, fine, but isn't that cheating? I mean, Jesus was resurrected after being put to death. The forfeited life is the ransom paid in full. The life was not actually forfeited and no actual ransom was paid if Jesus just gets to be resurrected and skip on his merry way while we all get to suffer and die with some lame promise of eternal life in heaven or paradise earth, take your pick, with absolutely no precedent to back it up. We are the ones whom the ransom was paid for. God made off with the ransom, the Indian Giver, and left the victims behind to remain suffering in the hands of the extortionists. Awesome god!

tec

Is not all things possible, ALL THINGS POSSIBLE? We are talking about the creator of the entire universe here. Are you saying that the only thing that god cannot do is change the heart of a mere man?

Yes, I agree that all things are possible with God.

Either he cannot or he will not.

i cannot worship that god.

But Oz... you wouldn't have that option if He did what you claim you want Him to do.

Just a thought.

I have to be on the road, but I wanted to respond to that for a quick moment. I won't be back until next week, unless I get a chance to get on-line.

Tammy

Terry

Abraham was the man who would not hesitate to choose God over his own family (in matters pertaining to his faith). Jesus would (more appropriately) be compared to the ram.

Jehovah is the God who would not hesitate to choose HIMSELF over his human family, or even His own son.

Jehovah views death or torture as "collateral damage" when it comes to stubborn insistence on being right at any cost.

The Ram represent how Jehovah gets his way by ramming it down your throat.

Terry

If Abraham is Jehovah and Isaac is Jesus......who is the Ram?

Michelle's right, and I'd like to know, in what way do you think Abraham is Jehovah (in Gen 22)?

This parlour game was very popular for a long long time in Christendom. When I first became a JW the Society's publications were filled with

types and anti-types. Sort of like shouting in a canyon and listening for the sound to return again and again.

Anybody is anybody depending on how you wish to get there.

Adam is Adam but Jesus is an antitype of Adam. Moses is Moses but Jesus is an antitype of Moses. And so on...

Here is how Jehovah gets to be Abraham. It is easy as pie.

Jesus is the son of god. Right?

Isaac is the son of Abraham. Right?

Do the math.

james_woods

Jehovah is the God who would not hesitate to choose HIMSELF over his human family, or even His own son.

This, I think, is one of the reasons why the deity of Christ (if not the Trinity itself) evolved - if Jesus were God, this eliminates that ugly aspect of the ransom.

Not that it makes sense of the hyper-legalistic mumbo jumbo...which really comes down to human sacrifice.

Lore

How about sending your son into a pool of piranha to find and save those who are looking for a way to clear/safe waters - even knowing he's going to get shredded doing that saving.

First of all, if you can show me ONE father on the planet who would send his son to do something like that instead of going himself, I'll show a really crappy father.

Second that analogy only works if the father and the son are not omnipotent and the only way to save the people is by jumping into the piranha infested waters. Instead of, for example, magically teleporting the people to clear/safe waters or turning all the piranha into tadpoles.

Note that this applies to ALL those flawed analogies to explain why the Jesus' death was needed.
The father didn't have to hold a lever on a train track that killed his son; If he's omnipotent he can magically stop the train in its tracks.
The father doesn't have to let his son drown in order to save someone else; If he's omnipotent he could give them the ability to breath water.

How do you figure its not within God's power? Christ IS alive, in spirit. But I'm guessing you meant invincible in the flesh? I'm not sure how many times Jesus said that the flesh counts for nothing and that it is the spirit that matters. So while you might believe that this was a failure, that does not make it so.

Either it's REALLY a sacrifice or it's NOT really a sacrifice.

If it's really a sacrifice then any god worth a hoot would be able to come up with a better solution than sacrificing his son. ( When you consider that amost every day millions of NON-GODS find trivial solutions to petty produce-theif problems that don't involve killing their children. )

If it's not really a sacrifice then why all the drama about his death? If the flesh counts for nothing and the spirit is all that matters and Jesus is still alive in spirit. . . I really wish Christians would stop lying to me and telling me that Jesus died for my sins.

Deputy Dog

Terry

This parlour game was very popular for a long long time in Christendom. When I first became a JW the Society's publications were filled with types and anti-types. Sort of like shouting in a canyon and listening for the sound to return again and again.

Help me out. Since I was never "in", I never played the Society's parlor game.

Here is how Jehovah gets to be Abraham. It is easy as pie.
Jesus is the son of god. Right?
Isaac is the son of Abraham. Right?
Do the math.

Who represents you and/or me?

charlie brown jr.

Anyone see Jesus do these so called Miracles? No.

It's all I knew a guy who saw this happen close 2 2000 years ago...

And his work isn't finished? And I can hear the argument Jesus talks to me and Jesus Guides me...

I also agree his Ransom is a Joke! God loved the World so much bla bla bla .... In God's eyes Jesus was dead for what... .0045 seconds... Oh the Pain he must of felt.

Many believe in the Ransom and I can respect that.... I can't by it and Always had a problem with Jesus saving us ....because of Adam... how about because of his Dad...GOD... he Created Adam and Eve and was 2 for 2 in creating Imperfect Perfect Beings with Freewill which sounds to me they weren't Perfect .....Perfect means No mistakes.....

So I would blame the Maker for the Products failure.

Aussie Oz

Is not all things possible, ALL THINGS POSSIBLE? We are talking about the creator of the entire universe here. Are you saying that the only thing that god cannot do is change the heart of a mere man?

Yes, I agree that all things are possible with God. So he can change the heart of men IF he wants to.

Either he cannot or he will not.

i cannot worship that god.

But Oz... you wouldn't have that option if He did what you claim you want Him to do. Yes, i would not be even be required to choose. He would have 'saved ' me regardless along with the rest of humanity, just for being his creation. Seeing that he can but will not, i choose to not worship this god intent on killing people he can change the hearts of. oz

Just a thought.

I have to be on the road, but I wanted to respond to that for a quick moment. I won't be back until next week, unless I get a chance to get on-line.

Tammy

Murray Smith

The Bible God and His Plan are remarkably inefficient, time-consuming, byzantine, bizarre and wasteful for the end result.

LOL . . . I've seen politicians make a better fist of things . . . and that's saying something!

A reason christs ransom makes no sense to me

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