Couple of questions for the Christians here - CO's talk mentioned some things that I want to understand

by Doubting Bro 50 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Doubting Bro

  This is a question for all the Christians on the board. I sat through the first CO talk last night which was basically a plea to not give up preaching. One of his main points was that no one else had "the truth" and every other person that claims to be Christian is in error. Typical bashing of others that one expects. Well, he was relating a story about an encounter he had with a lady in service and I want your opinions regarding whether he was accurately relaying the mainstream view on Jesus sacrifice.

  He said that he usually avoids talking about the Trinity when in service and instead focuses on Jesus ransom sacrifice. He said that if a person believes Jesus died to offset Adam's sin and thus mankind's sin, then they can't believe in the deity of Christ.

  So my question is:

  1) What is the mainstream Christian view of why Jesus came to earth and why he had to die?

  2) What was Adam's motivation to rebel? The CO says that Christianity teaches that he wanted to go to heaven and the only way he could do this was to sin and die. Obviously this makes no sense and I sat there thinking there's no way this could be true.

  3) I think his point about the deity of Christ is that if he were god (or divine which I understand is different - ie same nature as the Father but not the Father), then the sacrifice would have been too much. I really can't see why that would matter but he apparently thinks its a big deal. He never directly said why he believed this to be the case as if it was so clear that no explaination was necessary.

  He also said that Christians don't commerate his death only his resurrection. I looked at my wife and said "what about Good Friday"? Isn't that the holiest day on the Christian calander? " No doubt that the Easter celebration has incorporated "pagan" influences but understanding how that came about makes sense to me that it would. And, to a person that never celebrated Easter, it seems to me that Easter would be a happy time to celebrate the resurrection (that God made good on his promise) as opposed to a more reflective, somber rememberance that Good Friday would involve (I guess, I've never been to a service so I could be way off base).

  This CO, like many, is a skilled speaker and everyone was eating up what he was saying. I believe his arguments to be either disingenuous or outright lies when representing what other faiths teach. However, I didn't want my bias towards thinking everything out of a WT speakers mouth to be dishonest to cloud my judgement.
• 

  man in black

  Hello, A great post,,, I realy appreciate your thought here

  I was a Catholic most of my life, and what I learned during that time is highlighted in red below :

  2) What was Adam's motivation to rebel? The CO says that Christianity teaches that he wanted to go to heaven and the only way he could do this was to sin and die. Obviously this makes no sense and I sat there thinking there's no way this could be true.

  A), As I remember, his motivation was pressure from his wife, never did I hear anything about Adam wanting to go to heaven. I don't remember him actually having knowledge about going to heaven either.

  He also said that Christians don't commerate his death only his resurrection. I looked at my wife and said "what about Good Friday"? Isn't that the holiest day on the Christian calander? " No doubt that the Easter celebration has incorporated "pagan" influences but understanding how that came about makes sense to me that it would. And, to a person that never celebrated Easter, it seems to me that Easter would be a happy time to celebrate the resurrection (that God made good on his promise) as opposed to a more reflective, somber rememberance that Good Friday would involve (I guess, I've never been to a service so I could be way off base).

  Yes, Christians do commemorate his death.

  I have a local parishes current bulletin right here, and I quote from it,

  " Holy week for Christians is THE most important week of the entire year. It is the week that we celebrate the life-giving events of our salvation in Jesus Christ. Please make time this week to join us for the beauiful liturgies of Holy Week which celebrate the death and resurrection of Jesus and the eternity that he won for us."

  I find it interesting that this "False religion" actually makes this season an enjoyable experience. Music, talks, things do do for the younger kids, etc.

  Quite different than what the jw religion does at this time of year
• 

  Terry

  I think you have several presuppositions firmly in place.

  You may or may not be aware of it. It is those presuppositions which have caused the dissonance in reasonable conclusions.

  Most of bible believing people simply accept without question what is written.

  Indeed, if the bible is essentially without error, clearly divine in origin and immaculately transmitted, then, the assumption of fact is inescapable.

  But, you can't get here from there.

  You'll have to verify this for yourself.

  The bible has been over hyped by Protestants since the Reformation.

  For 1500 years the only christian church on earth was Catholic and the bible played a very small part in APPROVED orthodox pure worship.

  I'm not making this up.

  It was the Pope and Bishops and a tradition (magisterium) that authoratatively fixed TRUTH on earth and bound it in heaven.

  Faithful, honest christians merely trusted the church to be correct. They went to confession, particpated in the Mass and paid their indulgences.

  THAT WAS THE SUM TOTAL of duty for a "saved" christian.

  Naturally, today we view this with horror! We are descended from staunch enemies of this orthodoxy, the Protestants.

  We've been indoctrinated with the ALTERNATE VIEW. Truth comes from SCRIPTURE ALONE. Martin Luther introduced sola scriptura to REPLACE the doctrine of church inerrancy with bible inerrancy.

  Truth was now portable and personal.

  But, the resulting fracture of TRUTH into denominations with competing views has historically proved to be a failure in demonstrating any bible unity of teaching.

  WHY AM I SAYING ALL THIS IN ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTIONS?

  Because, you are asking your questions as a result of a deeply flawed book that has been hyped as THE source of divine TRUTH.

  Neither the Catholic Church NOR the bible alone are sources of anything at all resembling divine, inerrant TRUTH.

  it is all the voice of mankind groping it's way through history steeped in superstitious ignorance fueled by ancient stories represented falsely as true.

  You are wasting your time.

  Mormons believe the Book of Mormon is true.

  Muslims believe the Koran is true.

  Christians believe the Bible is true.

  Jews believe the writings of Moses are true.

  NONE OF THESE THINGS consists of inerrant, historical fact.

  It is pure human imagination.

  Don't waste your time WITHOUT INVESTIGATING what I've just told you. Your life will be wasted.
• 

  tenyearsafter

  The CO is definitely wrong that Christians don't celebrate his death. Every time Communion is served, it is commemorating the Lord's Supper (JW equivalent of Memorial). They differ from JW's in that they don't feel that it can only be done once a year...they interpret the scripture, "...whenever you do this..." as not requiring a limitatation of celebrating only once a year. The Resurrection of Christ is celebrated annually on Easter (or Resurrection Sunday as many Christian churches have now called it).

  Again, it is always easy to disseminate half truths to support a position...JW's are experts at this approach!
• 

  james_woods

  2) What was Adam's motivation to rebel? The CO says that Christianity teaches that he wanted to go to heaven and the only way he could do this was to sin and die. Obviously this makes no sense and I sat there thinking there's no way this could be true.

  That may very well be the looniest religious idea I have ever heard. There is absolutely no scriptural evidence for this. I do not think this is even a JW teaching - probably just a pipe dream from this CO.

  He also said that Christians don't commerate his death only his resurrection. I looked at my wife and said "what about Good Friday"? Isn't that the holiest day on the Christian calander? " No doubt that the Easter celebration has incorporated "pagan" influences but understanding how that came about makes sense to me that it would.

  Looney as before - how can traditional Christians commemerate his resurrection without commemerating his death? Badly broken logic.

  it is always easy to disseminate half truths to support a position...JW's are experts at this approach!

  Provided that you can give that stuff above even HALF truth dignity...
• 

  Doubting Bro

  Terry - I believe you've misread my questions. I'm specifically asking what mainstream Christians teach on a particular subject because I believe the CO to have misrepresented their views. I wasn't arguing the validity of such beliefs. I want to understand so that I can point out to my wife that the CO is misrepresenting other's beliefs which I'm hoping will spark discussions on other things that the WTS and its reps misrepresent.

  My presupposition is that the CO is either lying out right or being disingenious when speaking on the subject of what others believe.

  tenyearsafter - exactly. using half truths to support a position is their MO.
• 

  jgnat

  First of all, JW’s tend to lump the rest of “Christendom” in to one big basket; from the most liberal to the most fundamental, traditional to avant-garde. This allows them to take pot-shots at any excess that they may read about. The truth is much more complex. There are denominations, for instance, that closely match what the JW's teach, reflecting their common origins. I am thinking of the Seventh Day Adventists, for instance.

  Nevertheless, he’s talking about something that most denominations will agree. Start with the Nicene Creed that all Orthodox Christians subscribe to.

  1) What is the mainstream Christian view of why Jesus came to earth and why he had to die?

  From the Nicene Creed:

  …for us and for our salvation…

  …for us he was crucified….

  …forgiveness of sins….

  …resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come….

  For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (Romans 14:9 NIV)

  He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. (1 Thess. 5:10)

  2) What was Adam's motivation to rebel? The CO says that Christianity teaches that he wanted to go to heaven and the only way he could do this was to sin and die. Obviously this makes no sense and I sat there thinking there's no way this could be true.

  Check out Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15:45 to 57. One man’s sin led to death for all, but Christ’s sacrifice more than covers it. The marked difference I see with WT teachings is that sin is connected with imperfection. WT teaches that Adam became flawed, and we inherited those flaws. Sin is not seen in this light by Christians. Sin is a state of separation from God.

  My pastor has speculated that Adam had to be cast from the garden lest he eat from the tree of life and be eternally damned (Genesis 3:22). Since Adam had eaten of the knowledge of good and evil (and now had knowledge of sin), eating from the second tree would have condemned him forever. The casting out could then be seen as a mercy. It also suggests that if Adam had followed the plan, he would have eventually inherited eternal life in heaven as is now offered by Christ.

  I can’t say any more about Adam’s motives.

  3) I think his point about the deity of Christ is that if he were god (or divine which I understand is different - ie same nature as the Father but not the Father), then the sacrifice would have been too much. I really can't see why that would matter but he apparently thinks its a big deal. He never directly said why he believed this to be the case as if it was so clear that no explaination was necessary.

  I think the WT teaching is that the sin and the sacrifice must be equal. When I read Romans 5, the condemnation of sin and the sacrifice that covers it is described several times, in Paul’s distinctive lyrical style. Paul describes Jesus’ sacrifice as being more than enough, so more than equal.

  Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. – Luke 6:38 KJV

  He also said that Christians don't commerate his death only his resurrection. I looked at my wife and said "what about Good Friday"? Isn't that the holiest day on the Christian calander? " No doubt that the Easter celebration has incorporated "pagan" influences but understanding how that came about makes sense to me that it would. And, to a person that never celebrated Easter, it seems to me that Easter would be a happy time to celebrate the resurrection (that God made good on his promise) as opposed to a more reflective, somber rememberance that Good Friday would involve (I guess, I've never been to a service so I could be way off base).

  In my church we just celebrated Palm Sunday, the triumphal entrance of Christ in to Jerusalem.

  On Friday, a somber reminder of Christ’s sacrifice.

  On Easter Sunday, we celebrate his resurrection.

  Churches celebrate in many different ways. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter#Western_Christianity_2
• 

  james_woods

  Jgnat, (anybody?) - I am still fascinated by this notion that Adam deliberately sinned so that he could die, be resurrected, and go to heaven.

  How would he have imagined this would happen? He had pre-knowledge of Jesus? Certainly nothing I have seen in the scriptures even hints at such a thing.

  My question is - has ANYBODY ever heard any mainstream Christian teach this?
• 

  LV101

  the watchtower and it's REPS are totally ignorant and LIE, LIE, LIE. they've learned all their INFO from all of the christian faiths/religions then do what they always do --- make the good guy look bad for their own agenda and like it's their knowledge, wisdom from God --- which THEY HAVE NONE! they make up their own version from the real religions. WHY DO THEY NEED ALL the books and literature from other religions in their library if they know everything/anything. this is what they read/print off editing to their own slant so they can print magazines.

  THEY ARE SUCH LIARS.
• 

  PSacramento

  1) What is the mainstream Christian view of why Jesus came to earth and why he had to die?

  Christ died for our salvation - John 3:16

  2) What was Adam's motivation to rebel? The CO says that Christianity teaches that he wanted to go to heaven and the only way he could do this was to sin and die. Obviously this makes no sense and I sat there thinking there's no way this could be true.

  Adam ( MAN) rebelled and continue to rebel because of Pride: the believe that we don't need God.

  3) I think his point about the deity of Christ is that if he were god (or divine which I understand is different - ie same nature as the Father but not the Father), then the sacrifice would have been too much. I really can't see why that would matter but he apparently thinks its a big deal. He never directly said why he believed this to be the case as if it was so clear that no explaination was necessary.

  What is begotten is of the same nauture of the begetter, what is created is what is created.

  Human begets human and creates a painting, for example, the child is what beget it, HUman, the paint is what it was created to be, a painting.

  He also said that Christians don't commerate his death only his resurrection. I looked at my wife and said "what about Good Friday"? Isn't that the holiest day on the Christian calander?

  ALL Christianity marks the day Jesus died, they also mark that Jesus was born Human and they mark his ressurection.

  Which is far more that the JW's do.