Couple of questions for the Christians here - CO's talk mentioned some things that I want to understand

by Doubting Bro 50 Replies latest jw friends

  • Doubting Bro
    Doubting Bro

    jgant - you're dead on with your assessment that to the WT sin=imperfection. So let me ask, is the thought that Adam had no idea that he could choose to be separate from God and that the tree (whether symbolic or literal) gave him the knowledge that he could decide he didn't need God any longer? I believe the WTS doesn't really get into details on why the tree was named this way but rather focuses on the act of defying God's specific instructions. In other words, there wasn't necessarily anything special about the tree, it was the fact they disobeyed.

    I appreciate your other responses as well!

    james woods - yeah, it was wacky. I think what he was really saying is that in essence, that's what the churches teach. Not that they have a specific creed that spells it out. In thinking about it, I believe he was using WT "logic" to show how "far from the truth" mainstream Christians are.

  • james_woods
    james_woods
    james woods - yeah, it was wacky. I think what he was really saying is that in essence, that's what the churches teach. Not that they have a specific creed that spells it out. In thinking about it, I believe he was using WT "logic" to show how "far from the truth" mainstream Christians are.

    Yes, I understand. At first, I thought you were saying that he actually was teaching this as his own brand of WT truth.

    However, I really don't think any mainstream christian faith believes this - maybe somebody else knows of any that do. I think the CO pulled this one out of his behind.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    James woods, I am with you; the notion is silly. It is either made-up or your CO found a whackadoo Christian on his rounds.

    The whole notion of gleaning Adam's motives is silly. We don't even know who the shooter was on the grassy knoll. What were his motives?

    The events around the disobedience and the casting out of Adam and Eve as part of this allegorical story are much more interesting to me. For instance, who was God talking to when discussing Adam's fate? What did the two trees represent? As an allegorical story, how is it seen by other religions?

    This book looks interesting:

    Eve and Adam: Jewish, Christian, and Muslim readings on Genesis and gender By Kristen E. Kvam, Linda S. Schearing, Valarie H. Ziegler

  • therevealer
    therevealer

    If they can convince "thier dubs" that the "world" (everyone other than they themselves) are bad, then it is easier to convince that they are good.

    Same with thier christendom teaching. Christendom (all religious dogma/teaching) other than they themselves are wrong. Makes it so much easier to prove that they are right.

    It's like my brother says, while acknowledging that there are many problems and issues. God has always had a channel of/for truth. He's been convinced (and yes I was too) that all other religions are "bad". What does that mean - JW's have got to be the channel.

    I know that this seems totally off subject, but what I am saying is that everything the co said is watchtower bullshit.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Here's a "dumbed-down" wiki article on the concept of the "Fall of Man", and how other religions perceive it. Again, no mention of Adam's ambition for the heavenly hope.

    http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Man

  • Doubting Bro
    Doubting Bro

    jgnat - Thanks for the links. It's interesting because it sounds like the CO was somewhat right in that there is one group that teaches Adams motivation for eating the fruit was to go to heaven. Leave it to a religion with a similar background as JWs to come up with this one. The answer???

    Mormonism

    Mormonism believes that The Fall was part of a plan thought up by God so that His children could get into Heaven.

    Mormons say that when Adam ate from the Tree of Knowledge it was not wrong, but was just a "demotion", like going from one good job to another, less good job. Before eating the fruit, Adam could never die. Because he could never die, he could never go to heaven. Eating the fruit made it so that Adam could die, so that later he could go to heaven. It also made it so that Adam and Eve could have children, so that everyone would have a chance to live, die, and go to heaven. Mormons say that if one follows the Plan of Salvation, that person can go to heaven.

    Now, the fact that many don't accept LDS as being mainstream Christianity and I know there are those that say they're not Christian at all makes this even better. Talk about a broad brush!! I can't wait to use this!!

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    So let me ask, is the thought that Adam had no idea that he could choose to be separate from God and that the tree (whether symbolic or literal) gave him the knowledge that he could decide he didn't need God any longer?

    During my google hunt, I came across a blogger who had a similar thought. http://jonatwabash.blogspot.com/2007/08/adams-sin.html

    "...suggests that Adam's sin was precisely in pursuing the chance to be independent of God. Interestingly, this is essentially one of the definitions of sin, that sin is separation from God."

    My (JW) husband frequently gets upset at Adam for his error, and the terrible consequence that resulted. I've challenged him that Adam was an innocent, with no knowledge of the consequences of his actions. Interesting, through my google hunt, I found that Jews have the same opinion.

  • petitebrunette
    petitebrunette

    In all the years I was a witness, I never heard that reasoning about Adam wanting to sin to go to heaven. Kooky!

    I attended my first Easter Sunday last year at a community church. The whole thing was about Jesus sacrificial death, and what it was for Jesus and his Father to go thru. I expected it to be completely about his resurrection, but they never talked about it. I'm curious to see what the service will be like this Sunday.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Genesis is quite clear on why Adam and Eve sinned and what their sin was:

    They wanted to be like God.

    They weren't tempted by anything else other than that.

    Pride goeth before the fall.

  • WontLeave
    WontLeave

    From talking to people of various churches (and actually listening to them) various churches have various beliefs and various people believe various degrees of what their churches teach, making for enormous diversity of doctrine. To pigeon-hole "Christendom" into a single, narrow belief system is patent misinformation and propaganda. Granted, the Bible makes it clear there are only 2 types of religion to God: True and false. What the JWs fail to understand is that lock-step adherence to their beliefs is also false. Being "closest to the truth" is not the same as being truth.

    I have had many people at the doors tell me they believe no human could die for the sins of several billion people and they believe God himself dying for our sins would be a more even exchange. Some have the understanding that the propitiation was for Adam and that "the whole world" benefits from that even exchange, however.

    My understanding, from Scripture - not from JWs - is that Jesus is a lesser god to the father. He is "made of the same stuff", so to speak. My understanding of John 1:1 is that Jesus is literally a "chip off the old block" and thus fully capable of understanding the Father, while not being as powerful since he is merely a small piece of the Father. However, Jesus was not his spiritual god self while on Earth. His personality (a carbon copy of God's) was transfered to the womb of Mary, making him totally human but with a perfect mind and figurative "heart".

    Most JWs believe, since he was "perfect", Jesus would still be alive, walking around today, if he hadn't been executed. That, of course, is hogwash. Nothing about Adam was changed but his access to the Tree of Life. There are no Trees of Life on earth now, so neither we nor Jesus could partake of them and indefinitely live. According to Revelation, Trees of Life (whatever they may be) will be plentiful in the New World, but even according to the Bible, "perfect" humans are not eternal of themselves.

    As far as Adam believing he'd go to Heaven, that's a new one on me. It sounds like he's taking a lot of liberties with the "become like God" aspect of Satan's temptation to Eve and then overlaying it on churches. I've made the connection in my preaching that a form of the idea of not dying, but becoming like God is what most churches teach, but never suggested anyone believed Adam was trying for that.

    It sounds like a typical JW (il)logical leap made out of completely misunderstanding everyone else. It may be that in his JW-inflicted ignorance, he believes this or it may be that he understands he can say whatever he wants to because all the other JWs are too ignorant to know any better and won't verify anything he says. I've never heard any other JW say that, but rumor and myth spread like wildfire among JWs, so it may only be a matter of time. In the simplistic, cultish mind of a JW, anything the C/O says comes from Bethel and everything Bethel says comes from the very mind and mouth of God. This being the case, perhaps to many JW retards, this will become doctrine.

    As far as Mormon understanding of the whole Garden of Eden thing; they've totally lost their minds. Nearly every part of it is falsified in Scripture, even though they insist their religion doesn't violate the Bible, but merely add to it.

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