The watchtower has a long history of misrepresenting what other religions teach, and then knocking down those misrepresentations as "false doctrine." This is known as a straw man argument, the watchtower has become very good at it. Since a good dub NEVER actually studies what other religions teach, it continues to work.
Couple of questions for the Christians here - CO's talk mentioned some things that I want to understand
by Doubting Bro 50 Replies latest jw friends
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petitebrunette
So true JeffT. I actually thought I had studied other religions thoroughly, thru the WTS publications that is, completely misrepresented!
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PSacramento
The watchtower has a long history of misrepresenting what other religions teach, and then knocking down those misrepresentations as "false doctrine."
And "journey men believers" and "non-practicising believers" that know even LESS about their own "professed" religion are their prime targets.
Of course one can also say that religions in of themselves give the WT all the ammo they need to.
Of course that applies to WT also of course.
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godrulz
There is no way the WT is truth given their founder, history, unbiblical beliefs and practices. They are a manmade organization with the blind leading the blind. It is not hard to document there misquoting of credible sources, changing their documents/dates to cover false prophecies, flip flops of doctrine supposedly under the direction of Jehovah, straw man misrepresentations (especially the trinity), etc. They lack sound scholarship and critical thinking skills. They go high and low to find obscure sources (even Greber, a Catholic spiritist) to agree with their odd views.
1) Even in Christianity, there are several views of the nature of the atonement/sacrifice of Christ (Moral Government, Substitutionary, Christus Victor, literal payment, moral influence, etc.). The WT view of balancing the scales is a wrong view and not an argument against the Deity of Christ (begging the question on their part). Christ's death was a substitute for the penalty of death, not an exchange of a perfect human life for a fallen Adam. It satisfies public vs retributive justice and allows a holy God to wisely forgive repentant sinners. He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission. The issues are governmental, not personal for God (God wants to freely forgive, but cannot wisely do so if His law is undermined...love, justice, mercy, holiness are all issues).
2) I have never heard this theory on Adam's motivation except somewhat from Mormonism, another large pseudo-Christian cult like the WT. Adam had free will and was tempted to sin, contrary to God's will/intentions/purposes. He was intended to live on earth forever and did not do this to get to heaven. There is no biblical or logical evidence for this false straw man.
3) It begs the question to assume the wrong WT view of balancing human life scales. The issue is reconciliation of holy God and sinful man. He is the perfect mediator because He is the God-Man, one person with two natures. Some say the offense is so vast that only God could 'pay' the price. A mere angel or man cannot atone for the sins of the world, but the one who is God and Man can. The overpayment theory against deity of Christ is a lame WT argument that really does not make sense (counter-cult ministries have responded to this point in greater detail).
As pointed out, most churches focus on Good Friday (when we have communion in addition to other times of the year)/death AND Easter/resurrection (which is bodily, not recreation of spirit creature Michael?!). The WT is Pharisaical in their Memorial and loopy in their fear of pagan Christmas, Easter, birthdays, etc. They do not know the reality of the incarnation, Deity, death, resurrection of the true Christ, but substitute a vapid, dead religion in its place with endless false doctrines and unbiblical practices.
JW pseudo-scholarship is rank amateurism and parroting organizational thinking is no excuse for not searching out the truth with the Holy Spirit (who is personal vs active force?!) and the Word (a credible version, unlike the sectarian NWT that is universally panned by people who can actually translate).
Where do you go if the WT is not the truth? There are 1000s of Christ-centered, Bible-believing churches, but the real issue is coming to a person, not an organization for life (Jn. 3:16; Jn. 14:6; Acts 4:12).
Jn. 5:39-40 may be heard by JWs on judgment day (when even they will confess that Jesus is Jehovah, but too late Phil. 2:5-11). They diligently search Scriptures (NWT perversion, especially on the Deity of Christ verses)....which is actually more searching WT literature superimposed on Scripture leading to twisting and destruction) thinking they will earn eternal life hopefully, yet they refuse to come to Him, Jesus, for life (like Pharisees, reject the Deity of Christ, and follow a false, counterfeit, worthless jesus).
The Truth will set free, but the WT will drag one to the lake of fire (they can deny it, but they are also wrong on soul and hell). In light of the wealth of info available (no wonder they indoctrinate and mind control so people don't look outside the organization), it is a wonder that they do not implode or that they attract even gullible, ignorant people. There is no excuse in this day and age to be deceived by the kingdom of the cults (shows the power of demonic deception and sinfulness of men).
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james_woods
The issues are governmental, not personal for God (God wants to freely forgive, but cannot wisely do so if His law is undermined...love, justice, mercy, holiness are all issues).
Why does God need governmental rules of law?
This sounds completely like man-made theory to me.
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godrulz
God is a responsible moral governor of the universe. He gives laws that show His holy standard based on His righteous character. The Law condemns us as sinners in need of a sinless Savior since God's holy standard is perfection and we all fall short of this glory (Rom. 3:23). Law without penalty/sanctions would be suggestion and lead to lawlessness, no justice, no deterrence, etc. This is based on biblical principles, not proof texts. God freely wants to forgive since He is full of grace and mercy, but this would undermine His law and rulership/governorship if he let Hitler off scott free to kill with impunity. By substituting Christ for the penalty of sin He can uphold His law, show His great love, show the awfulness of sin, etc. The issues are not to appease His anger with animal blood to make Him willing to forgive (retributive justice), but to make it wise to forgive repentant sinners without compromising justice/holiness for love/mercy/grace (public justice). These principles are also seen in human government, law, justice, courts. There is a time to be lenient and a time to be harsh. God is the perfect Judge, Sovereign, ruler and issues of sin and righteousness are moral (hence moral government principles). The balancing scales of Adam/human Jesus is the WT manmade doctrine that is not rooted in Scripture nor church history. It is not the issue in a holy God providing redemption. These issues are somewhat technical and the WT simply has a simplistic view that does not stand up to scrutiny. Charles Finney (Systematic Theology) and Albert Barnes (The Atonement) develop this from Scripture. To be honest, most Christians are not familiar with this view and hold to a penal substitutionary view that has some merit, but not the full story. Books on JWs refute the WT view in more detail. This is above the average person's interest, so the important thing is to trust the true vs counterfeit Jesus for eternal life, to know He died in our place, to know we are sinners/lawbreakers who cannot save ourselves, etc. His sacrifice was perfect provision, but it must be received by faith. It is based on grace, not works. JWs are wasting endless time and still have no hope because they have not received His gift by grace/faith alone. True believers are born again when they receive Jesus (Jn. 1:12; I Jn. 5:1, etc.) and it is not limited to 144K. The WT is lying and ripping people off.
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WontLeave
@godrulz
The balancing scales of Adam/human Jesus is the WT manmade doctrine that is not rooted in Scripture
I'll even use the Trinitarians' pet translation, the KJV, which is a sectarian version made by and for the Church of England, to fit its doctrine:
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. - 1Cor 15:45-47
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. - Rom 5:17-19
As far as "church history" or the other human interpretations you cite, I'm pretty much done with having my Bible filtered through people. Your very presence here is a bit strange, actually. You've never been a JW, but you're lurking around looking for disgruntled JWs to substitute your bastardization of Scripture for their previously-held bastardization of Scripture. I'm already privy to the fact that a church member who converts to lock-step Kingdom Hall member has just traded one untruth for another untruth. Your blind adherence to your personal church lie is no different than the hardcore JW's blind adherence to that lie.
Normally, I ignore you, but you're starting to piss me off. You leap on every other thread with your canned church dogma and parrot the same crap the Catholic Church made up 1600 years ago. I'm sorry your god died, but mine can't and didn't. Contrary to the convoluted and demonstrably false Trinity doctrine, Jesus didn't "resurrect", but was resurrected (Acts 2:24). I'm often pleading with JWs to put down the Watchtower and allow the Bible to speak to them. Now, I'm going to plead with you to do the same. Put down the creeds, the commentaries, the catechisms, the rites and rituals, and allow God's Word to speak to you. Empty your cup of all the preconceptions you've been programmed with all your life. The truth in the Bible is logical, simple, and clear, if you don't muddy the waters with all the church clutter.
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snowbird
1) What is the mainstream Christian view of why Jesus came to earth and why he had to die?
The same as the Bible's - He came to serve and give His life in exchange for that of His doomed Creation. Matthew 20:28 and John 3:16.
2) What was Adam's motivation to rebel? The CO says that Christianity teaches that he wanted to go to heaven and the only way he could do this was to sin and die. Obviously this makes no sense and I sat there thinking there's no way this could be true.
I have not heard of such a teaching. The Christians I know believe the Bible's teaching that Eve was seduced by the Tempter, but Adam was not. I believe that Adam was subsequently seduced by Eve to eat from the forbidden tree. 2 Corinthians 11 and 1 Timothy 2.
3) I think his point about the deity of Christ is that if he were god (or divine which I understand is different - ie same nature as the Father but not the Father), then the sacrifice would have been too much. I really can't see why that would matter but he apparently thinks its a big deal. He never directly said why he believed this to be the case as if it was so clear that no explaination was necessary.
The purpose of a sacrifice is to give up or of yourself in order to benefit others. If Jesus of Nazareth were merely a Man, or Michael the Archangel, then we would have a problem, because neither has the qualification to redeem anyone from death - namely, Life in and of itself. However, as Creator, Jesus of Nazareth does, and He willingly gave it up on our behalf. What a stupendous, unfathomable act of love! Philippians 2.
Syl
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godrulz
Can't leave/won't leave: I am not Catholic, etc. Unlike JWs, I have nuanced views that are from personal study and convictions even if they disagree with my denominational traditions. My beliefs in Deity of Christ, Trinity, etc. are rooted in Scripture, not the blind following of tradition, creeds, etc.
Quoting verses does not negate the need to interpret them in context. I do not prefer KJV, though the WT used to favor it. Tell me you are not using NWT? The fact that you were deceived by WT gives you little credibility to pick a fight with me (who can clearly see it is false based on Scripture).
Truth does not run from error. I will defend and proclaim truth, while JWs and many ex-JWs who have not become Christians remain in error/darkness.