Lady lee, Eggnog doesn't need to comnplete it's education, it told us it was a "genius".
I am so glad I am not a genius, I'm happy to have just educated myself to a masters degree.
In general, what is the ethically correct response if a minor tells you someone is molesting him/her?
by InterestedOne 84 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse
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Lady Lee
I'm very happy with my TSS and BA plus 13 years of experience working with sexual abuse survivors plus another 2 years working with abused wives plus teaching and lecturing on abuse issues for 23 years
You rock cantleave
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Lady Lee
dj are you an elder? a MS? a what? Are you an active JW that you would know better than some of the active elders here?
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GLTirebiter
exactly what I meant. glad to see some people understand me
Lee, you worded it clearly in plain English. The problem isn't what you wrote, it's some folks' inability to accept what you said.
so no matter what the superior authorities might require the accused and his or her victims to do, we are going to investigate the facts of the report made, and if at least two witnesses confirm the report, the matter is established in our minds, regardless of what police and judges do
So, the WT thinks elders should be the detectives, and the prosecutors, and the judges, and the jury? They aren't! Where in the reporting laws does it mention "investigation" by civilians and "at least two witnesses"? It doesn't! When the WT needs to use so much strained wording to justify what they are telling the elders to do, that's a pretty reliable indication that they are telling them to do the wrong thing.
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djeggnog
@djeggnog wrote regarding matters involving criminal investigations undertaken in matters where child abuse is alleged:
I do believe that there was a time when Jehovah's Witnesses in the local congregation would investigate the circumstances surrounding the report, and then, based on the results of their investigation, would report (i.e., child abuse, spousal abuse, extortion, other criminal acts that might be taking place) to the authorities, but those days have ended.
[T]he families of alleged victims of child abuse are asked if they are comfortable about reporting the alleged abuse themselves, especially since the accused abuser may be a family member living in the household (e.g., a father or a sibling), and, if not, we will report the abuse on their behalf.
[T]he elders are going to ask the family of the alleged victim if they feel comfortable about reporting the alleged abuse themselves, and if they would prefer not to do so, then the elders will do so, period.
@djeggnog then wrote regarding matters regarding theocratic investigations undertaken in matters where child abuse is alleged:
The kinds of things with which we deal in the local congregation has to do with the spirituality of the parties involved, so no matter what the superior authorities might require the accused and his or her victims to do, we are going to investigate the facts of the report made, and if at least two witnesses confirm the report, the matter is established in our minds, regardless of what police and judges do. If we learn that the alleged abuse of a child in this case was reported by another child in a different case, then where, in both cases, the same allegations involving sexual abuse are made against the same individual, but by different children, this, too, will establish the matter.
@GLTirebiter wrote:
So, the WT thinks elders should be the detectives, and the prosecutors, and the judges, and the jury?
You totally misunderstood the points I was making regarding criminal investigations and theocratic investigations, but I thought I distinguished these two kinds of investigations. Even if the brother(s) or sister(s) were to be cleared in a criminal investigation, theocratic investigations are independent investigations to determine whether there is repentance on the part of anyone accused of such criminal conduct. Not only will criminal offenses be reported to the authorities, but there will typically be a judicial committee empaneled for the purpose of determining what effect, if any, the brother(s) or sister(s) accused of such criminal conduct might potentially have upon the spiritual welfare of the congregation, which is of prime importance.
I don't recall saying a thing about elders taking on the role of detectives or prosecutors or judges in any of the things I wrote. You might enjoy putting words into my mouth because you happen to have an agenda to maintain and you think to make today "thrash an elder day," but I am able to speak for myself without any assistance from you or from anyone else here.
They aren't! Where in the reporting laws does it mention "investigation" by civilians and "at least two witnesses"? It doesn't!
Again, what I stated about "two witnesses" does not accord with the standard in criminal investigations that are undertaken by law enforcement, but, in fact, is consonant with theocratic investigations that are undertaken by the body of elders in the congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses.
When the WT needs to use so much strained wording to justify what they are telling the elders to do, that's a pretty reliable indication that they are telling them to do the wrong thing.
Actually, what you and others here need to do is learn how to live quietly and to mind your own business and stop thinking that Jehovah's Witnesses need suggestions from you on how their elders carry out their scriptural responsibilities, for we understand both our legal responsibilities toward the superior authorities (i.e., police officers, local law enforcement, and so forth), and our spiritual responsibilities to Jehovah God and to the Lord Jesus Christ, so that we are able to walk orderly and decently toward those on the outside. (1 Thessalonians 4:10-12)
@djeggnog
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Lady Lee
You agreed with me and yet my very next paragraph indicates what ought to be done should one of the child's parents be the abuser of that child, does it not? Parsing your statements in this way is disingenuous, @Lady Lee. By so doing, you misrepresent my views in order to make it appear that you are the one in the right. Here's what I went on to say (which you even quoted in your post):
@djeggnog wrote:
If one of the child's parents or guardians is the one about whom you are informed has been involved in sexually abusing the child, then your responsibility is to report the crime to the police, so that you do not become an accessory after-the-fact by being sworn to secrecy by the spouse of the abuser. Your ethical responsibility is discharged once you have informed the authorities of the crime.
Yes, the thread is about ethical responsibility that one has toward the minor that confesses to them that someone is molesting or has been molesting them, for legal questions ought to be directed to lawyers qualified to make such assessments and to give legal advice (which you aren't, are you)?
@Lady Lee:
ethical? no LEGAL responsibility since the elders want to claim clergy privilege in this matter which doesn't apply when it is the victim disclosing the abuse.
dj You can't have it both ways - ethical and elders as non-clergy and legal where the elders are acting as clergy. Since elders do in fact act as clergy they have a legal responsibility to report. A MS servant or other JW on the other hand would have an ethical responsibility to report it since they would not be considered clergy.
Yes the thread says ethical but the issue is that since elders do act as clergy they have a legal responsibility regardless of who is or isn't a JW. And as a worker in the field part of my training did include my legal responsibility in areas where I would hear confessions of crimes or even the threat of committing a crime. My training mandates that I follow the Code of Ethics for Social Workers and there is a legal aspect to that which I am fully qualified to state. I have every right to state what the law says.. That isn't giving "legal advice". If someone came to me and I was untrained and they told me they saw someone commit a robbery I would tell them to call the police. You don't need a legal degree to have a whiff of common sense
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Lady Lee
Actually, what you and others here need to do is learn how to live quietly and to mind your own business and stop thinking that Jehovah's Witnesses need suggestions from you on how their elders carry out their scriptural responsibilities, for we understand both our legal responsibilities toward the superior authorities (i.e., police officers, local law enforcement, and so forth), and our spiritual responsibilities to Jehovah God and to the Lord Jesus Christ, so that we are able to walk orderly and decently toward those on the outside. (1 Thessalonians 4:10-12)
dj the WTS/JW elders have a conflict of interest and it gets in the way of doing the right and legal thing. They believe their law is above the law of the land - otherwise known as Theocratic War Stategy. I assume you have heard about that?
You keep saying "our". Are you an elder?
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jgnat
I don't recall saying a thing about elders taking on the role of detectives or prosecutors or judges in any of the things I wrote. (djeggnog)
Even if you are unacquainted with elder responsibilities, they have been spelled out here several times. When informed of possible child abuse, the elder investigates first, then reports to the authorities afterwards. The elder's manual calls for two witnesses. The legal system, when it comes to child abuse, does not. This is because abuse of a minor, by it's very nature, is unlikely to produce two witnesses.
By following theocratic investigation procedures first, the elders will dismiss more potential cases of abuse than what police investigators would use as sufficient evidence to charge a person. Not only that, the Elder investigation will alert the abuser that they have been called out, giving the accused time to bury the evidence. Hopefully not literally. This might include further intimidation of the dependent minor by the accused.
By following theocratic justice first, the elders take on the role of judge and jury. By calling witnesses, they are taking the role of detective, trampling over evidence the police would rather investigate untampered.
As an interesting side note, police investigations are exempted from freedom of information and disclosure laws. They are under no obligation to advise the accused that they are under investigation. This allows the police the opportunity to collect untampered evidence. There is no similar accommodation in the elder's manual.
If the elders were directed to report to the authorities first, this would not be an issue. The police investigation and trial would determine guilt, and the subsequent elder investigation would determine spiritual condition.
Lady Lee, I have been enjoying your responses.
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Lady Lee
Thanks jgnat
The only reason I keep doing this is so that people will see through the mumbo-jumbo theocratese that is practiced by the WTS/JW. I don't expect djeggnog to wake up and realized he has been lied to regarding this issue (and many others). If he is not an elder he is misled and needs to wake up. If he is an elder then he is a liar.
Active elders have posted here. They have told dj he is wrong. If I am in error I ask them to correct me. I hate to not have the truth
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cantleave
eggnog isn't even a witness lady lee. He's a wannabe.