Any Presbyterian here? (page 3)

snowbird

Renee, off topic, but what does the isorym mean in your username?

Syl

onemore

Leavingwt,

Put simply, before billions are ever born, God knows that these people will live for a few years on Earth, and then they will go to Hell and burn for all eternity. Nothing that these people do during their lives can change this fact. People cannot decide to choose God. God must choose them.

Yes, that is one of the subject that I have reservations with, and it seems to be one of the most difficult point in reformed theology to accept. But at this point, I am in no position to neither reject it nor accept this teaching without fully understanding it.

reneeisorym

It is not based on us, anything in us, or upon foreseen works, and it is an election to salvation (not simply to service). This makes us really humble because we know it has nothing to do with us. We have no reason to boast except in Christ.

Eph 1:4

even as he chose us in himbefore the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Romans 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh,"For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

2 Thess 2: 13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruitsto be saved,

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."

Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then?Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the restwere hardened,

reneeisorym

Romans 8:28 – “We know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them that are called according to His purpose, for whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate.”

2 Timothy 1:9 – “God has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.” (referring to that covenant)

John 15:16 – “Ye have not chosen Me, (Christsays) but I have chosen you.”

Acts 13:48 – “And when the Gentiles heard this they were glad and glorified the Word of the Lord, and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”

leavingwt

Unconditional Election

Unconditional election is God's choice to save people regardless of their sin or any condition. This basically means, God's act of saving is not based on what man can do or choose to will, but man is loved by God without any conditions or man's action or deeds but solely by God's grace, thus unconditional election.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconditional_election

In this equation, God chooses who he wants, the rest go to Hell. He has not revealed his reasons. However, one thing is certain: He does not choose people based upon anything that those people do/feel//say.

Deputy Dog

lwt

I'm not a Presbyterian, but I would say my theology leans toward "reformed". Infant baptism doesn't seem very "biblical" to me though.

Embracing Calvinism will likely be one of your most significant challenges.

I find sovereign grace to be one of the most calming and loving expressions of God. It assures me that all the suffering in this world, and the next ,has a purpose, while I may not understand it completely this side of glory.

Put simply, before billions are ever born, God knows that these people will live for a few years on Earth, and then they will go to Hell and burn for all eternity. Nothing that these people do during their lives can change this fact. People cannot decide to choose God. God must choose them.

As a sinful, unrighteous creature, I'm in no position to argue with God about it. I trust His judgement and realize that if I recieved what I deserve Hell is where I'd be headed.

Evil and suffering provide the backdrop, if you will, for the glory of God.

onemore

Yes, that is one of the subject that I have reservations with, and it seems to be one of the most difficult point in reformed theology to accept. But at this point, I am in no position to neither reject it nor accept this teaching without fully understanding it.

I'll leave you with this:

Romans 9:20

But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--

reneeisorym

It all amounts to the same thing no matter if you embrace Calvinism or not.

If you don't believe in it, you essentially say this:

God made each of us with this certain personality, sinful nature, these parents (who may be anywhere from mean like rattlesnakes or beautiful, warm, loving couple), and this location. Some people have more of a chance at believing because they were born from Christian parents in a loving home in the Bible belt. Others were born products of rape in wartorn, poverty stricken, Muslim northern Africa and their chances of hearing the gospel is slim to none. It's not really fair that some people get to hear about God's grace and others do not. Sometimes God does miracles to the people born in China and they find a Bible in the street and come to believe. Those are sweet stories, but you don't believe in Calvinism, you have to ask why he does these miracles to some and not for others.
Also, God made me with this personality that questions everything, so I left the JWs. Why did I get this personality, and some of my dear family members did not? It's not fair.

If you do believe in Calvinism, you just believe that some are chosen and some are not. It's not fair, but it's not exactly fair reguardless. Unless you believe that all are going to heaven, it's not fair.

To me, this isn't a big deal. No matter what you believe, factors you do not control determine your fate.

All that matters is that you believe that grace and not works get you eternal life. JWs are the ones that have it wall wrong! I always thought I had to go to meetings, service, bible study, etc. to get in.

reneeisorym

Renee, off topic, but what does the isorym mean in your username?

Syl

I played computer games when I was younger (7 years ago I quit .. ). My name was always Orym in those games. I guess I should think of a new one now. But you guys wouldn't know who I was!

reneeisorym

Infant baptism doesn't seem very "biblical" to me though.

I can see both sides, and I'm still not sure.

cofty

As a christian I always found Calvinism - TULIP - to be morally repugnant; as an atheist even more so.

I agree with Renee though I have known plenty reformed christians who are very likeable people, I think they are the ones like Renee who have decided that the theology is "no big deal". The ones who really take it seriously are among the most miserable, sour faced, unhappy, judgemental, disapproving people you could meet.

Any Presbyterian here?

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