Any Presbyterian here? (page 5)

reneeisorym

"If he chose to let someone be born knowing what they would decide, what's the difference??!"

That's called open theism and it's definately not reformed theology.

Reformers believe God decrees the future.

True. I do not believe the above. It just seems to me that the results are the same even if you do believe that.

Either God makes a person with a set of looks, personality, set of parents, and location and lets them have free will to decide already knowing what they will decide. Quite frankly - those factors above will have a profound effect on their decision.

OR God makes a person with their eternal fate already predestined.

Reguardless it seems that God is in control of our destiny.

I guess you could believe like JWs that God could know the future but he chooses not to. The Bible just doesn't teach that.

I always end up at the same place no matter what.

reneeisorym

Open theism according to wiki:

Practically, open theism makes the case for a personal God who is open to influence through the prayers, decisions, and actions of people. Although many specific outcomes of the future are unknowable, God's foreknowledge of the future includes that which is determined as time progresses often in light of free decisions that have been made and what has been sociologically determined. So God knows everything that has been determined as well as what has not yet been determined but remains open. As such, God is able to anticipate the future, yet remains fluid to respond and react to prayer and decisions made either contrary or advantageous to God's plan or presuppositions.

cofty

If I could illustrate the subtle difference -

Calvinism - God foreordains every detail of the future including human response to the gospel - (God wrote the book of all future events)

Arminianism - God foreknows every detail of future free will choices of humans - (God has read the book of all future events before they happen)

Open theism - God cannot foreknow the future entirely because humans have not yet made their choices (The book is being written in real time)

Watchtower - god could know the future if he chose but he chooses not to (The book is written but god is waiting for the movie)

Deputy Dog

cofty

So is choosing someone based on what choices they make, as if God were constrained by thier future choices.

My point is God knows the future because he decreed it, not simply because he can see into it.

Edited to add

I missed page three before I posted, sorry.

I don't know why it wasn't showing until just after I posted

leavingwt

One thing that impresses me about Calvinists, is that they are not apocalyptic, and they find real value in this life. They are very dedicated to serving Christ's interests on Earth, today. Often, this takes the form of doing good for others, by means of education and charity.

This, in contrast to WT dogma, in which 'this life' has very little value and everyone eagerly awaits an apocalypse and then a reward. Moreover, those outside the WT organization are either seen as (1) bird food or (2) potential converts.

cofty

So is choosing someone based on what choices they make, as if God were constrained by thier future choices.

I know that is the reformed position.

I'm afraid I must bow out of the discussion here. As a christian I was of an Armenian position and always felt repulsed by Calvinism.

Now it all feels a bit like a debate about the finer points of the Emperors new outfit.

Deputy Dog

cofty

I'm not an Arminian, but, I think some, if not, most Arminians would deny God makes choices based on the choice of the believer.

reneeisorym

One thing that impresses me about Calvinists, is that they are not apocalyptic, and they find real value in this life. They are very dedicated to serving Christ's interests on Earth, today. Often, this takes the form of doing good for others, by means of education and charity.

A lot of people preach the gospel as "You better straighten up because the world is going to end" when it's supposed to be: "We are sinners and deserve to be punished. Good news is Jesus died to pay the penalty for those sins so that you can enter into heaven."

Reminds me of Galations 1: 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Also, we are usually believe in covenant and post millineal theology where the apocalyptic denominations believe in dispensationalism - That means that where people like JWs believe in a 1st and 2nd fulfillment of the prophesies, we believe it was prophesied and fulfilled .. period. No 2nd fulfillment. We believe we are in the millineum now and just waiting for the end/2nd coming. There isn't as much debating about the mark of the beast and so forth. (And I'm totally not an expert on this subject - If I have a detail messed up, don't slaughter me!)

cofty

Its "unconditional election" v foreknowledge

Probably a distiction without a difference but that hasn't stopped you christians falling out over it all these years

reneeisorym

My point is God knows the future because he decreed it, not simply because he can see into it.

That's Calvinism.

Any Presbyterian here?

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