Real Jehovah's Witnesses (djeggnog, StandFirm, etc), I'm trying to understand you.

by pirata 62 Replies latest jw friends

  • tenyearsafter
    tenyearsafter

    The Watchtower Society may encourage the wise use of a person's time, but I haven't noticed the discouragement of research outside the Society's publications because the Governing Body fears outside influences. That type of thinking is the thought process that Jehovah's Witnesses are under the umbrella of mind control. This is science fiction as there's no scientific theory, let alone, evidence for “mind control.”

    Maze...I don't know how much more clearly the FDS can state their position??

    Does ‘the faithful and discreet slave’ [Watchtower organization] endorse independent groups of Witnesses who meet together to engage in Scriptural research or debate?—Matt. 24:45, 47.

    No, it does not. And yet, in various parts of the world, a few associates of our organization have formed groups to do independent research on Bible-related subjects. Some have pursued an independent group study of Biblical Hebrew and Greek so as to analyze the accuracy of the New World Translation. …They have also held conferences and produced publications to present their findings and to supplement what is provided at our Christian meetings and through our literature. …Thus, ‘the faithful and discreet slave’ does not endorse any literature, meetings, or Web sites that are not produced or organized under its oversight… For those who wish to do extra Bible study and research, we recommend that they explore Insight on the Scriptures,All Scripture Is Inspired of God and Beneficial,’ and our other publications….”—Kingdom Ministry, September 2007, p. 3

  • punkofnice
    punkofnice

    @1pnt

    I'll read your post later when time permits.

    Tell me. What is your position in the congregation where you are?

    Thanks Mr P

  • Aussie Oz
    Aussie Oz

    I would say that the ones in question (apologists)

    have completely missed the point of the opening post

    and are simply justifying being disobedient to their own precious GB.

    To them i say, go tell your C/O next time you see him, that you are a regular poster on JWN and see what happens! Better yet, print out all your posts and discussions for him as well...

    and please tell us what happens

    oz

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    What, no "@AGuest", dear pnt (peace to you!)? Dang. Unless I missed it...

    Ah, well...

    Again, peace to you!

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • punkofnice
    punkofnice

    I think 1pnt missed my question. Here it is again........

    @1pnt

    Tell me. What is your position in the congregation where you are?

    Thanks Mr P

  • Athanasius
    Athanasius

    Hi Punkofnice,

    I think 1pnt may have indirectly answered your question in her answer to the question regarding whether she counts her time posting on JWN. 1pnt said:

    "So, I'll let God's great clock and timepiece, Michael the Great Prince, keep track of the hours, LOL."

    How many JWs do you know who minimize the importance of recording and turning in their time to the boys in Brooklyn? A real JW would no sooner neglect the GB's mandate to turn in their time than they would ignore the Watchtower's warning to avoid apostate forums on the internet.

  • Maze
    Maze
    The Watchtower Society may encourage the wise use of a person's time, but I haven't noticed the discouragement of research outside the Society's publications because the Governing Body fears outside influences. That type of thinking is the thought process that Jehovah's Witnesses are under the umbrella of mind control. This is science fiction as there's no scientific theory, let alone, evidence for “mind control.”
    Mind control (also known as brainwashing, coercive persuasion, mind abuse, thought control, or thought reform) refers to a process in which a group or individual "systematically uses unethically manipulative methods to persuade others to conform to the wishes of the manipulator(s), often to the detriment of the person being manipulated".
    This process is well documented and not science fiction, it is studied often in view of (counter)intelligence, cults and so-called religions where people suddenly decide to cut off all contact to the outside even (non-believer) family. It is not a 'disease' but it is definitely a concept that is actively being used by certain groups and being studied by veritable scientists. Unless off course you're a Scientologist that rejects that psychology is real and scientific.

    The Truth and God's active force has a transforming power that includes “thought reform” (not brainwashing) and there's nothing wrong with that.

    And quit being fashioned after this system of things, but be transformed by making your mind over, that you may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:2

    You perceive what is stated by the faithful and discreet slave as “manipulation” because you disagree with it. Just because Jehovah's Witnesses do agree with what the Bible and the slave class teaches doesn't mean they're being controlled by a human agency. Many organizations have a body of laws and a code of conduct required to remain in good standing in the organization.

    The scientific community for the most part is physically minded and cannot correctly grasp what the Bible truly teaches nor do they care.

    But a physical man does not receive the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know [them], because they are examined spiritually. However, the spiritual man examines indeed all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, that he may instruct him?” But we do have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:14-16

    Only a select few in contemporary society possess the “mind of Christ.”

    “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it. Matthew 7:13-14

    There's nothing that suggests one of Jehovah's Witnesses should cut off contact with friends and family upon becoming a Witness.
    w98 12/1 p. 17 par. 15 Defending Our Faith

    The Bible indicates that Christians are to treat unbelieving family members with love and respect, and Witnesses endeavor to follow that direction.

    w08 1/15 p. 15 par. 15 “Rightly Disposed” Ones Are Responding

    Positive results have also come to many who have witnessed to unbelieving family members, even when it seemed unlikely that these would respond favorably.

    "We all need help to understand the Bible, and we cannot find the Scriptural guidance we need outside the ‘faithful and discreet slave' organization."-The Watchtower, February 15, 1981, p. 19

    w04 12/15 pp. 14-15 par. 14 Jehovah Is Our Helper

    Jehovah also used his holy spirit to enlighten his people. With the help of God’s spirit, Joseph was able to interpret Pharaoh’s prophetic dreams. (Genesis 41:16, 38, 39) By means of his spirit, Jehovah caused his purposes to be revealed to humble ones but hidden from proud ones. (Matthew 11:25) Thus, concerning the things Jehovah provides “for those who love him,” the apostle Paul said: “It is to us God has revealed them through his spirit.” (1 Corinthians 2:7-10) Only with the help of holy spirit could a person truly understand God’s will.


    Those outside of Jehovah's Organization don't receive this spirit. This doesn't mean the Watchtower Society condemns research outside of what is published by the faithful and discreet slave. As a matter of fact, the Watchtower writing committee researches and quotes from worldly sources all of the time.

  • Anony Mous
    Anony Mous

    The Truth and God's active force has a transforming power that includes “thought reform” (not brainwashing) and there's nothing wrong with that.

    Thought reform is a synonym to brainwashing.

    Romans 12:2 - This does not mean that brainwashing or thought reform by an external organization is required or approved off. Most will agree that this is changing our minds over in coordination with God and Jesus, not for the purpose of getting us to think and act against our will.

    You perceive what is stated by the faithful and discreet slave as “manipulation” because you disagree with it.

    No, I perceive what is stated by the faithful and discreet slave that is not backed up by the original biblical text as manipulation of the bible text to fit their needs.

    Just because Jehovah's Witnesses do agree with what the Bible and the slave class teaches doesn't mean they're being controlled by a human agency.

    What you just stated is a dichotomy. If they agree with what the self-appointed slave class teaches and interprets for them, then they are being controlled by a human agency. If they agree with what the biblical text says and interpret it for themselves, then they leave the Jehovah's Witnesses as the articles I quoted clearly show you.

    Many organizations have a body of laws and a code of conduct required to remain in good standing in the organization.

    Straw man argument typically used to defend shunning. Many organizations have a code of conduct which can get you expelled, most organizations do not have a set of punishments when somebody breaks the code of conduct. Very few organizations (actually only cults) use shunning as a deterrent to leaving their organization or breaking their codes of conduct.

    There's nothing that suggests one of Jehovah's Witnesses should cut off contact with friends and family upon becoming a Witness.

    And I quote KM Aug 2002: Hence, we also avoid social fellowship with such a [non-witness] person. This would rule out joining him in a picnic, party, ball game, or trip to the mall or theater or sitting down to a meal with him either in the home or at a restaurant ... The bond between family members can be very strong. This brings a test upon a Christian when a marriage mate, a child, a parent, or another close relative is [not one of Jehovah's Witnesses]

    From the articles you quoted it is very clear that the ulterior motive of contact with the family is to talk about the faith and extending it.

    Those outside of Jehovah's Organization don't receive this spirit.

    Prove from the Bible that Jehovah's Witnesses are the only organization accepted by God. One of the proofs would be that none of their doctrines, prophecies and actions are neither wrong, false nor change.

    This doesn't mean the Watchtower Society condemns research outside of what is published by the faithful and discreet slave.

    I quoted you several WT articles to the contrary

    As a matter of fact, the Watchtower writing committee researches and quotes from worldly sources all of the time.

    They misquote a lot of sources first of all, they do not research nor quote opposing viewpoints and it's only the WT writing committee that is allowed to do so per the several WT articles I quoted earlier.

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    ***Well, as Jesus said, who really is the faithful and discreet slave? Not to say the WTS is not deploying their insight, but you do not know who is who

    20571pnt428571, don't look now, but you are already a flagrant apostate.

    -Sab

  • Maze
    Maze
    Thought reform is a synonym to brainwashing.
    Romans 12:2 - This does not mean that brainwashing or thought reform by an external organization is required or approved off. Most will agree that this is changing our minds over in coordination with God and Jesus, not for the purpose of getting us to think and act against our will.

    Thought reform in the context Romans 12:2 means displaying the fruitage of God's spirit and putting away the works of the flesh; a personality change.

    Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning you, the same way as I did forewarn you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom.

    On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. Moreover, those who belong to Christ Jesus impaled the flesh together with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:19-24

    Strip off the old personality with its practices, and clothe yourselves with the new [personality], which through accurate knowledge is being made new according to the image of the One who created it, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, foreigner, Scythian, slave, freeman, but Christ is all things and in all. Colossians 3:9-11

    The fruitage of God's spirit and a Christ-like personality does not operate against free will.

    No, I perceive what is stated by the faithful and discreet slave that is not backed up by the original biblical text as manipulation of the bible text to fit their needs.

    Jehovah's Witnesses do adhere to the original Bible renderings. The Bible contains a perfect message from God. The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures conveys this message as close to perfection as any Bible rendering.

    What you just stated is a dichotomy. If they agree with what the self-appointed slave class teaches and interprets for them, then they are being controlled by a human agency. If they agree with what the biblical text says and interpret it for themselves, then they leave the Jehovah's Witnesses as the articles I quoted clearly show you.

    All of Jehovah's Witnesses receive God's spirit when interpreting God's word. This is why the agree with the faithful and discreet slave's interpretation.

    w57 6/1 p. 328 Do You Understand the Bible?

    Of paramount importance in understanding God’s Word is God’s holy spirit, his invisible active force. By it the Bible was written: “You know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private release. For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit.” Since the Bible was written under God’s spirit, only his spirit can bring about understanding: “No one has come to know the things of God, except the spirit of God. Now we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God, that we might know the things that have been kindly given us by God. But a physical man does not receive the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them.”—2 Pet. 1:20, 21; 1 Cor. 2:11, 12, 14, NW.

    Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought. 1 Corinthians 1:10

    Christendom’s churches are not agreement with each other, nor is their membership in agreement within subdivisions of the same denomination.

    Straw man argument typically used to defend shunning. Many organizations have a code of conduct which can get you expelled, most organizations do not have a set of punishments when somebody breaks the code of conduct. Very few organizations (actually only cults) use shunning as a deterrent to leaving their organization or breaking their codes of conduct.

    Didn't you just claim Jehovah's Witnesses misinterpret the Bible? How do you interpret 1 Corinthians 5:9-13?

    http://niv.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/5.htm

    I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

    What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”

    And I quote KM Aug 2002: Hence, we also avoid social fellowship with such a [non-witness] person. This would rule out joining him in a picnic, party, ball game, or trip to the mall or theater or sitting down to a meal with him either in the home or at a restaurant ... The bond between family members can be very strong. This brings a test upon a Christian when a marriage mate, a child, a parent, or another close relative is [not one of Jehovah's Witnesses]
    From the articles you quoted it is very clear that the ulterior motive of contact with the family is to talk about the faith and extending it.

    You completely took what was stated in the August Kingdom Ministry out of context. This information is referring to a person who is disfellowshipped, not simply an unbelieving family member.

    km 8/02 p. 3 par. 3 Display Christian Loyalty When a Relative Is Disfellowshipped

    This means that loyal Christians do not have spiritual fellowship with anyone who has been expelled from the congregation. But more is involved. God’s Word states that we should ‘not even eat with such a man.’ (1 Cor. 5:11) Hence, we also avoid social fellowship with an expelled person. This would rule out joining him in a picnic, party, ball game, or trip to the mall or theater or sitting down to a meal with him either in the home or at a restaurant.

    Prove from the Bible that Jehovah's Witnesses are the only organization accepted by God. One of the proofs would be that none of their doctrines, prophecies and actions are neither wrong, false nor change.

    And what would a scripture like this say? The Bible identifies Jehovah's servants by name.

    “You are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that you may know and have faith in me, and that you may understand that I am the same One. Isaiah 43:10

    Jehovah's Organization is the only organization that teaches the truth about the Bible as Jesus instructed.

    And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come. Matthew 24:14

    Jehovah's Organization is the only international global community with love among themselves.

    By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.” John 13:35

    Both science and religion, in their noblest forms, involve the search for truth. True religion has a consistent pattern of corresponding to universal truth. Some opposers tend to cherry pick through older publications for a mistaken viewpoint they try and exploit for self-serving purposes while ignoring core Bible truths the Watchtower Society has taught for many decades. A prior mistaken viewpoint that has been corrected doesn't change the fact that Jehovah's Witnesses teach the truth about the Bible nor does it mean a person doesn't have an accounting before God.

    Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, knowing that we shall receive heavier judgment. For we all stumble many times. If anyone does not stumble in word, this one is a perfect man, able to bridle also [his] whole body. James 3:1-2

    Jehovah can instill evidence that Jehovah's Witnesses belong to the organization approved by him if given the opportunity. The input of apostates doesn't penetrate this evidence. Opposers get hung up on the most nonsensical issues and fail to understand or have lost sight of what the Bible teaches.

    Keep on teaching these things and giving these exhortations. If any man teaches other doctrine and does not assent to healthful words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, nor to the teaching that accords with godly devotion, he is puffed up [with pride], not understanding anything, but being mentally diseased over questionings and debates about words. 1 Timothy 6:2-4

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