Exactly how many different views of Jesus are there on the Board and doesn't that kind of tell Believers the obvious problem...

by designs 149 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  AGuest

  how do we learn about God/Christ apart from Scripture?

  The same way as did those before there WAS “scripture”... or before there were gospels... or a revelation... or the Bible canonization, dear godrulz (again, peace to you)? Or, absent that, at a minimum, by following what [the scriptures] SAY about that subject? I mean, we DO have what Christ is recorded to have said, as well as what John, among others, do we not?

  “… the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that will teach YOU all things and bring back to YOUR minds all the things I told YOU.” John 14:26

  “When the helper arrives that I will send YOU from the Father, the spirit of the truth, which proceeds from the Father, it will bear witness about me;”John 15:26

  “These things I write YOU about those who are trying to mislead YOU. And as for YOU, the anointing that YOU received from him remains in YOU, and YOU do not need anyone to be teaching YOU; but, as the anointing from him is teaching YOU about all things, and is true and is no lie, and just as it has taught YOU, remain in union with him. So now, little children, remain in union with him, that when he is made manifest we may have freeness of speech and not be shamed away from him at his presence.” 1 John 2:26-28

  My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. John 10:27

  Following these actually works quite well, in my experience. Besides, in light of the "false stylus of the secretaries" (Jeremiah 8:8), the danger actually lies WITHIN the "parameters of [what many believe to be] the Scriptures." Christ alluded to this when he condemned the works of the scribes ALONG with that of the Pharisees. It is why he said what is recorded at John 5:39, 40:

  “Y OU are searching the Scriptures, because YOU think that by means of them YOU will have everlasting life; and these are the very ones that bear witness about me. And yet YOU do not want to come to me that YOU may have life."

  Thus, ALL of the divisions among "christians" have existed since the start of the great apostasy because of this: following the works of the scribes and Pharisees... as manifested either in the Bible... or their translations/intepretations of it... rather than following Christ. And NOTHING/NO ONE else. That's where the apostasy CAME from: folks following the thing that speaks ABOUT God and Christ, often erroneously so... and those who CLAIM to "know" him, by means OF it... rather than following God... THROUGH Christ... by following Christ.

  Not rocket science, dear one. Quite elementary, actually.

  I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!

  YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  designs

  To illustrate the problem- A Presbyterian believes in the intermediate state and then the final state of his/her resurrection is to be with Jesus on Earth, a Lutheran rejects the idea of a return to earth and accepts only the idea of eternity with Jesus in Heaven: all, supposedly, from the one same Jesus, but in reality that's two different ideas unless you want to accept Jesus as telling two different church groups differing stories.
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  Deputy Dog

  designs

  There is nothing new, or novel about your question.

  Mat 16:13

  Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" 14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets." 15 He *said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

  Who do you say that he is?

  I'm praying for ya buddy.

  A Presbyterian believes in the intermediate state and then the final state of his/her resurrection is to be with Jesus on Earth, a Lutheran rejects the idea of a return to earth and accepts only the idea of eternity with Jesus in Heaven: all, supposedly, from the one same Jesus, but in reality that's two different ideas unless you want to accept Jesus as telling two different church groups differing stories.

  You are indeed very confused. Among Christians there is room for debate over issues like this.

  You're still thinking like a JW. Being uniform in belief, doesn't make you more likly to be right.

  Among Christians this is a secondary issue. I would gladly accept people of both of these beliefs as brothers in Christ. They aren't talking about a different Jesus.

  If I have misunderstood some minor details of the bible and the law (and I'm sure I have), Christ's work and God's grace is more than enough.
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  godrulz

  Not all of us lived in the first century and walked with Jesus. The primary source for knowing and knowing about Jesus is still Scripture illuminated by the Spirit. This is how we test orthodoxy vs heterodoxy (jgnat, better than true vs false Christian?!).
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  designs

  Deputy Dog-

  Then by all means call JWs brothers and sisters in Christ because if there is that much difference in the Churches, which can't be reconciled from one messanger's supposedly clarian voice, then JWs who figured out a way to believe in both destinies shouldn't be pilloried.

  Then you have the issue of the Creeds which really interpret the scripture you cite to mean: God the Son is the Son of God the Father...and such a novel addendum wasn't held by the early Nazarenes. That begs the further question of the Bishops adding which ideas to the texts of the Gospels to make them come out the way the envisioned Jesus.
• 

  AGuest

  The primary source for knowing and knowing about Jesus is still Scripture illuminated by the Spirit.

  Interesting (again, peace to you, dear godrulz), particularly in light of my Lord's words to Thomas, who said he "certainly would NOT believe"... unless he SAW [evidence of my Lord's death, via the holes in his body]:

  "Happy are those who do not see and yet believe.”

  In that light, I'd have to ask you, given that Christ fulfilled the Law so that it was hung on the pole with him... in 30 CE...

  1. What "scriptures" did the Spirit "illuminate" for the Apostles and disciples between the time of his death... and the writing of the first NT account (some 10-90 or so years later, depending on whose opinion you fancy)? Be careful here, dear one, as you don't wanna go back to an OT account, because those don't include much of the details of his ministry...

  2. What happened to the "many" accounts that Luke said had been undertaken by the time he wrote his? Note, only Matthew's account preceded Luke's, so where were/are the others?

  3. What happened to Paul's first letter to the Corinthians? Because you do realize, of course, that the one labeled "1 Corinthians" is actually his second letter (which is he SAID, "I wrote you"), and the one labeled "2 Corinthians" is his third (which is why he SAID "This is the THIRD time I am coming to you...")?

  I'd also have to ask you just what, in your opinion, is "scripture"... because Paul's writing's certainly aren't... nor are Luke's (most of the NT writings aren't actually, but that's another post/thread)... by their own admission and content. Luke, on the basis that he included his commissioner - Theophilus and NOT God or Christ - in his greeting, as well as names his source - "eyewitnesses" and NOT God or Christ.

  Paul because, well, if you read his letters in the order written, you will see his "spiritual" progress as well as understand why there was such great dissention between him and the Apostles so that they didn't even associate with each other for about 14 years. Because what they had been taught by Christ (to NOT judge, but forgive, and to condemn no one. And certainly not to shun or oust anyone... something Christ NEVER did or taught). In fact, Paul almost virtually destroyed the Corinthian congregation with the dissention he sowed with his VERY unchristlike teaching as to "removing" ones from the congregation. The Apostles and some of the older men of that congregation openly opposed him on this teaching so that, in retaliation, he called them "superfine" apostles and attempted to raise his teachings over theirs. Yet, HE was not one of the 12... and no covenant "for a kingdom" had been made with HIM, as it had been with THEM. In addition, Luke tells WHY Paul was called... and it was NOT for any "zeal"... but to pay recompense for his bloodguilt, which Paul himself acknowledged in his final speech before being hauled off to Rome.

  So, now, tell me... what "scriptures" did Christ tell his Apostles, disciples, and other chosen ones to refer to... and where might one find that in the Bible?

  Again, peace to you!

  YOUR servant, as I am servant to ALL those of the Household of God, Israel, and those who go with... and a slave of Christ,

  SA, who shares these truths with you in the same Spirit as did Priscilla and Aquila with Apollos...
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  godrulz

  Oral traditions, letters, etc. did exist in the first century. How is this relevant to us now that we have a closed canon? The inspiration, transmission, canonicity, etc. of Scripture is defensible. Look to the Word now since we are not in the first century.

  Aguest: what is your faith background in relation to JWs and where are you at now?
• 

  Deputy Dog

  designs

  Then by all means call JWs brothers and sisters in Christ because if there is that much difference in the Churches, which can't be reconciled from one messanger's supposedly clarian voice, then JWs who figured out a way to believe in both destinies shouldn't be pilloried.

  They, by their own desire/words do not want to be my brother. They outwardly reject my God.

  The Presbyterians, Lutherans, Baptists and many others, while having some differences still worship and love and embrace my God. We see each other as brothers in Christ.
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  godrulz

  There is a difference between essentials of the faith that we cannot compromise (Deity/resurrection of Christ; salvation by grace through faith alone apart from works, etc.) and peripheral issues that have been debated without definitive resolution for centuries (non-salvific issues like predestination, free will, styles of church government/worship, eternal security, etc.). Mature believers can have unity in Christ and respectfully disagree on controversial theological subjects that are important, but not heaven or hell things.
• 

  AGuest

  ... letters, etc. did exist in the first century.

  And where are they now, dear godrulz (peace to you)? Those not included in the Bible canon, I mean. And WHY are they not included?

  How is this relevant to us now that we have a closed canon?

  One, who chose and "closed" the canon? Do you adhere to their beliefs, doctrines, and creeds? If so, why are you HERE? If not, why then do you trust their "canonization"?

  The inspiration, transmission, canonicity, etc. of Scripture is defensible. Look to the Word now since we are not in the first century.

  I do look to the Word, dear one. You, however, do not. You look to an incomplete, much tampered with compilation, that contains more errors than truth... as well as a FEW writings (out of very many!)... that speak about and on occasion bear witness to him. If I want to know YOU, though, which is better: to read what others wrote about you... that others have come behind and edited to virtual oblivion... or to talk to YOU?

  The Word of God... is Christ, dear one. The Most Holy One of Israel HAS NO OTHER Word. And NOWHERE can you show me otherwise, especially not in the Bible, which TELLS you... PLAINLY... what and who the Word of God is. You have been misled, however, and so put your faith in and believe the MEN who have told you otherwise. Which is why you are still "searching the scriptures"... rather than looking directly at and TO the Copper Serpent, CHRIST... held up by God to save those whose gaze is on HIM. And not on the pages of some ancient scroll that have passed through the hands of a myriad of "scribes" ("WOE, to you... scribes!").

  Aguest: what is your faith background in relation to JWs and where are you at now?

  I was a JW from 1980 to 1996, dear one. I am no longer after they asked me to leave (because of partaking and sharing with them what I received from my Lord once I did and subsequently received holy spirit). Now... I am simply a living stone in the temple of God, a member of the Body of Christ, enrolled in the congregation of the Firstborn. I follow the Lamb (who led me here) wherever HE goes (which is why I am here, as a servant to those of the Household of God, Israel, who are here... and there are a few). By means of that holy spirit, I can [discern] hear spirits, most noticeably my Lord's voice... which I listen to, follow, and obey.

  As a result, I have learned to go through HIM (the HOLY One of Israel)... and by doing so can and have entered into the MOST Holy, before the Person of JAH, the MOST Holy One of Israel. I do this in spirit (as did/do many others)... THROUGH [the] Truth (Christ).

  There is no religion, denomination, or "church" that I belong to. I AM the church of God, a living stone, as are ALL those who are part of the temple being built by Christ, the NEW "Jerusalem." The Most Holy One of Israel does not dwell in handmade buildings... nor in a book. Neither does His Son.

  Both dwell in the "temple" that are His people.

  How do such people KNOW what God wants of them? They don't look to the "Law" written on stone... or on parchment in delible ink, dear one. They look to the "law"... written on their hearts... by means of the NEW Covenant established with them by God... through its Mediator, Christ. That was the PROMISE of that New Covenant - a law written on hearts. And the Most Holy One of Israel did not disappoint: for those IN that Covenant, that law IS written... on tablets of flesh, not of paper or stone.

  I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!

  YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

  SA