Seeking suggestions on reaching my wife ...

by wannabefree 42 Replies latest members private

  • WontLeave
    WontLeave

    Exert yourself in Bible study (real Bible study, not JW literature study) with your family. Focus on things that will allow them to contrast Scripture with what they're told to think. Personally, I'd focus on the human leadership, because it's easy and once they see the light about that, the rest falls into place. Help them to see they don't need the Watchtower's permission or interpretation to believe something. Once they start asking questions, it becomes their idea and you're not the "bad guy" for telling them. Help them see a rejection of human religious leaders is not the same as rejection of God or the Bible.

    These are just some of the verses that made me see how bogus the fds claim of the GB is (all references are NWT):

    Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. He is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god” or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god. - 2Thes 2:3-4
    "Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU traverse sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one YOU make him a subject for Gehenna twice as much so as yourselves. – Mat 23:15
    For when one says: “I belong to Paul,” but another says: “I to A·pol′los,” are YOU not simply men? What, then, is A·pol′los? Yes, what is Paul? Ministers through whom YOU became believers, even as the Lord granted each one. I planted, A·pol′los watered, but God kept making [it] grow; so that neither is he that plants anything nor is he that waters, but God who makes [it] grow. Now he that plants and he that waters are one, but each [person] will receive his own reward according to his own labor. For we are God’s fellow workers. YOU people are God’s field under cultivation, God’s building. - 1Cor 4:3-9
    Also, he tells me: “These are the true sayings of God.” At that I fell down before his feet to worship him. But he tells me: “Be careful! Do not do that! All I am is a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who have the work of witnessing to Jesus. Worship God; for the bearing witness to Jesus is what inspires prophesying.” - Rev 19:9-10
    All the same, many even of the rulers actually put faith in him, but because of the Pharisees they would not confess [him], in order not to be expelled from the synagogue; for they loved the glory of men more than even the glory of God. – John 12:42-43
    Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. He is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god” or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god. – 2Thes 2:3-4
    Let a man so appraise us as being subordinates of Christ and stewards of sacred secrets of God. Besides, in this case, what is looked for in stewards is for a man to be found faithful. Now to me it is a very trivial matter that I should be examined by YOU or by a human tribunal. Even I do not examine myself. not proved righteous, but he that examines me is Jehovah. Hence do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring the secret things of darkness to light and make the counsels of the hearts manifest, and then each one will have his praise come to him from God. – Rom 4:1-5
    “Who are you that you should be afraid of a mortal man that will die, and of a son of mankind that will be rendered as mere green grass? And that you should forget Jehovah your Maker, the One stretching out the heavens and laying the foundation of the earth, so that you were in dread constantly the whole day long on account of the rage of the one hemming [you] in, as though he was all set to bring [you] to ruin? And where is the rage of the one hemming [you] in? – Isa 51:12-13
    He said to them: “It does not belong to YOU to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction – Acts 1:7
    The things concealed belong to Jehovah our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons to time indefinite, that we may carry out all the words of this law. – Deut 29:29

    These helped me see through the man-made rules:

    However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth. The reason for this is that every creation of God is fine, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, for it is sanctified through God’s word and prayer over [it]. - 1Tim 4:1-5

    Also, when YOU pray, YOU must not be as the hypocrites; because they like to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the broad ways to be visible to men. Truly I say to YOU, They are having their reward in full. You, however, when you pray, go into your private room and, after shutting your door, pray to your Father who is in secret; then your Father who looks on in secret will repay you. - Mat 6:5-6

    For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If YOU carefully keep yourselves from these things, YOU will prosper. Good health to YOU! – Acts 15:28-29
    Welcome the [man] having weaknesses in [his] faith, but not to make decisions on inward questionings. One [man] has faith to eat everything, but the [man] who is weak eats vegetables. Let the one eating not look down on the one not eating, and let the one not eating not judge the one eating, for God has welcomed that one. Who are you to judge the house servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for Jehovah can make him stand. – Rom 14:1-4
    For such freedom Christ set us free. Therefore stand fast, and do not let yourselves be confined again in a yoke of slavery. - Gal 5:1
    For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God; but not according to accurate knowledge; for, because of not knowing the righteousness of God but seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the Law, so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness. – Rom 10:2-4
    For they utter swelling expressions of no profit, and by the desires of the flesh and by loose habits they entice those who are just escaping from people who conduct themselves in error. While they are promising them freedom, they themselves are existing as slaves of corruption. For whoever is overcome by another is enslaved by this one. Certainly if, after having escaped from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, the final conditions have become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it accurately to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. – 2Pet 2:18-21
    Do not become righteous overmuch, nor show yourself excessively wise. Why should you cause desolation to yourself? - Eph 7:16
    But because of the false brothers brought in quietly, who sneaked in to spy upon our freedom which we have in union with Christ Jesus, that they might completely enslave us— to these we did not yield by way of submission, no, not for an hour, in order that the truth of the good news might continue with YOU. – Gal 2:4-5
    To the making of many books there is no end, and much devotion [to them] is wearisome to the flesh. – Ecc 11:12
    Every saying of God is refined. He is a shield to those taking refuge in him. Add nothing to his words, that he may not reprove you, and that you may not have to be proved a liar. – Pro 30:5-6
    So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness. – 2Thes 1:11-12
    For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories. – 2Thes 4:3-4
    Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world. – 1John 4:1
    Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so. – Acts 17:11
    Anyone inexperienced puts faith in every word, but the shrewd one considers his steps. – Pro 14:15
    in order that we should no longer be babes, tossed about as by waves and carried hither and thither by every wind of teaching by means of the trickery of men, by means of cunning in contriving error. But speaking the truth, let us by love grow up in all things into him who is the head, Christ. – Eph 4:14-15
    Only do not turn aside from following Jehovah, and YOU must serve Jehovah with all YOUR heart. And YOU must not turn aside to follow the unrealities that are of no benefit and that do not deliver, because they are unrealities. – 1Sam 12:20-21
    Do not put YOUR trust in nobles, Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. – Psa 146:3
    For YOUR own sakes, hold off from the earthling man, whose breath is in his nostrils, for on what basis is he himself to be taken into account? – Isa 2:22
    It is better to take refuge in Jehovah Than to trust in earthling man. – Psa 118:8
    This is what Jehovah has said: “Cursed is the able-bodied man who puts his trust in earthling man and actually makes flesh his arm, and whose heart turns away from Jehovah himself. – Jer 15:5
    Be alert, therefore. Perhaps the light that is in you is darkness. – Luke 11:35
    I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among YOU and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among YOU yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves – Acts 20:29-30
    Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as YOU have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But [they went out] that it might be shown up that not all are of our sort. And YOU have an anointing from the holy one; all of YOU have knowledge. I write YOU, not because YOU do not know the truth, but because YOU know it, and because no lie originates with the truth. – 1John 2:18-21
    For, indeed, although YOU ought to be teachers in view of the time, YOU again need someone to teach YOU from the beginning the elementary things of the sacred pronouncements of God; and YOU have become such as need milk, not solid food. For everyone that partakes of milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their perceptive powers trained to distinguish both right and wrong. – Heb 5:12-14

    These helped me see through the "apostate" bogyman propaganda:

    Then the high priest ripped his outer garments, saying: “He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? See! Now YOU have heard the blasphemy. – Mat 26:65
    For we have found this man a pestilent fellow and stirring up seditions among all the Jews throughout the inhabited earth and a spearhead of the sect of the Nazarenes – Acts 24:5
    Hear the word of Jehovah, YOU men who are trembling at his word: “YOUR brothers that are hating YOU, that are excluding YOU by reason of my name, said, ‘May Jehovah be glorified!’ He must also appear with rejoicing on YOUR part, and they are the ones that will be put to shame. – Isa 66:5
    “I have spoken these things to YOU that YOU may not be stumbled. Men will expel YOU from the synagogue. In fact, the hour is coming when everyone that kills YOU will imagine he has rendered a sacred service to God. But they will do these things because they have not come to know either the Father or me. Nevertheless, I have spoken these things to YOU that, when the hour for them arrives, YOU may remember I told them to YOU. – John 16:1-4
    “Look! I am sending YOU forth as sheep amidst wolves; therefore prove yourselves cautious as serpents and yet innocent as doves. Be on YOUR guard against men; for they will deliver YOU up to local courts, and they will scourge YOU in their synagogues. – John 10:16-17
    “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his lord. It is enough for the disciple to become as his teacher, and the slave as his lord. If people have called the householder Beelzebub, how much more [will they call] those of his household so? Therefore do not fear them; for there is nothing covered over that will not become uncovered, and secret that will not become known. What I tell YOU in the darkness, say in the light; and what YOU hear whispered, preach from the housetops. And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. – John 10:24-28
    “Should I not hold an accounting because of these very things,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “or on a nation that is like this should not my soul avenge itself? An astonishing situation, even a horrible thing, has been brought to be in the land: The prophets themselves actually prophesy in falsehood; and as for the priests, they go subduing according to their powers. And my own people have loved [it] that way; and what will YOU men do in the finale of it? – Jer 5:29-31
    "For this reason, here I am sending forth to YOU prophets and wise men and public instructors. Some of them YOU will kill and impale, and some of them YOU will scourge in YOUR synagogues and persecute from city to city; that there may come upon YOU all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom YOU murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly I say to YOU, All these things will come upon this generation. – Mat 23:34-36
    Bear in mind the word I said to YOU, A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will persecute YOU also; if they have observed my word, they will observe YOURS also. But they will do all these things against YOU on account of my name, because they do not know him that sent me. If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. – John 15:20-22
    “Happy are YOU when people reproach YOU and persecute YOU and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against YOU for my sake. Rejoice and leap for joy, since YOUR reward is great in the heavens; for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to YOU. – Mat 5:11-12
    “Happy are YOU whenever men hate YOU, and whenever they exclude YOU and reproach YOU and cast out YOUR name as wicked for the sake of the Son of man. Rejoice in that day and leap, for, look! YOUR reward is great in heaven, for those are the same things their forefathers used to do to the prophets. – Luke 6:22-23
    For if someone, because of conscience toward God, bears up under grievous things and suffers unjustly, this is an agreeable thing. For what merit is there in it if, when YOU are sinning and being slapped, YOU endure it? But if, when YOU are doing good and YOU suffer, YOU endure it, this is a thing agreeable with God. – 1Pet 2:19-20
    Let a man so appraise us as being subordinates of Christ and stewards of sacred secrets of God. Besides, in this case, what is looked for in stewards is for a man to be found faithful. Now to me it is a very trivial matter that I should be examined by YOU or by a human tribunal. Even I do not examine myself. not proved righteous, but he that examines me is Jehovah. Hence do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring the secret things of darkness to light and make the counsels of the hearts manifest, and then each one will have his praise come to him from God. – Rom 4:1-5

    If you have the CD-ROM, there are good cross-references when you look up the scriptures. Once you get them to realize "God's organization" has often been the source of problems and has never been exempt from Satan's influence, maybe you can get them to take off the blinders which prevent them from examining the Society. So many JWs are quick to point fingers outward, but God and Jesus have warned repeatedly not to turn a blind eye to blasphemy just because it's within "true religion". They've also warned to keep a close eye on anyone making claims of being religious leaders.

    Ask questions which allow them to draw their own conclusions. Focus on Jesus and his followers being labeled as apostates and persecuted for their beliefs. You might want to show them the account of the golden calf and remind them how their leadership allowed and even encouraged false worship, then made excuses when confronted about it. Help them to see the worship demanded (and received) for the Governing Body. JWs love to point fingers and accuse everybody outside, while putting a hedge around the Society. They're allowed to get away with murder, because they're "imperfect men", while everybody else's every misdeed is scrutinized. All you have to do is trim a peep hole through that hedge and get them to stop equating a printing company with God.

    Help them to separate God from his messengers. If they want to go beyond that and reject the Society altogether, they can make that choice themselves. Any time they accuse you of "apostasy" against the "faithful and discrete slave" or a lack of faith in the Governing Body, point out to them how they're confusing them for Christ and violating Scripture. Help them to realize the difference between following the demands of men for their approval and following the requirements of God for his approval.

  • oompa
    oompa

    ditto leavingwt!....i tried and tried and pushed and begged....all it did was drive her closer to jah and make her cling more to the org...there is zero reasoning...sometimes silence is golden...........oompa

    but no matter what you should try and get your daughter to at least WAIT on the water dunk thingy......

  • nugget
    nugget

    All is not lost where there is life there is hope. What you are fighting against is years of indoctrination and subtle pressure to conform and fear change and disapproval. If most of the people in your daughters life are Jws she will already have much to loose.

    What you can do is tell her what her baptism means for her and what she is committing to. It is not just a token but an enormous change in her relationship with her family and the elders. She grants the elders full authority to control her life in future they will decide whether she is worthy to be part of the club.

    She needs to be sure that the elders, and the organisation are worthy of that level of trust. If she was making any other life changing commitment e.g. taking a job, choosing a boyfriend etc she would be expected to do her research so in this instance it is more important and she needs to know the best and the worst about the organisation. They say they are the truth so they have nothing to fear from exposure after all surely only good things could be shown. Crisis of conscience is a reputable book explaining how the organisation runs so she needs to understand this.

    Jehovah will understand her taking her time after all this is not some frivilous bathing beauty pagent but dedication to a book publishing company.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Even though she was born-in, your wife still has an authentic personality. I am a little worried that all of your discussions so far have been on the doctrinal side. Jean-Luc pointed out some of the characteristics of your wife that you need to be paying attention to. Having discussions of her childhood, her early ambitions and dreams, can help, too. Did she ever want to learn an instrument or express her creative side? Has she mentioned hopes of doing these things in the "new system"? Sign her up for a course...now. Let her express and enjoy her individuality....now.

    I also have reservations about pulling the headship card. The most attractive attribute of your new self is the freedom to think for yourself. You need to reinforce your wife's and your daughter's rights to think freely, too. Give them the power to make decisions and express opinions, even if they are unpopular. Celebrate their God-given ability to think things through.

  • wannabefree
    wannabefree

    Great suggestions, thank you.

    @ pirata - thanks for the link, great information, obviously there are so many similar experiences here and such a wealth of information

    @ leavingwt - great advice, I have recognized this as a fear she has

    @ WontLeave - very helpful suggestions, I will try to incorporate some of this, thank you - I have talked personally on this topic, that I would like to read the Bible with her, she is disturbed that I do not want to read it through Watchtower publications, she believes we can't understand it correctly without the explanation of the "faithful slave" - pointed out to her how few actual verses of Acts are referred to in our current "Bible Study" publication even though it is supposedly all about Acts, and that I would like to study as a family all of the verses in context, she doesn't like this idea.

    @ nugget - thanks, good advice

    @ jgnat - yes, I guess it has been a lot of doctrinal stuff - I appreciate your perspective on the headship angle, good advice - I have been trying to introduce my family to outside influences, we have been getting together with a couple that she has come to enjoy being with, this does cause her to feel guilty but she has a good time when we are together .... ironically, the wife had a similar upbringing as a fundamental Lutheran I think, she mentioned how she had to sit out of all of the school events along with Witnesses, had a very strict upbringing, I think this relationship has a potential of being a very valuable aid, they also have a daughter who is the age of my youngest I spoke of above ... I recently asked my wife about her childhood and how she felt growing up as a Witness, school, friends, her expressions are all about how guilty she felt because her parents weren't strict like they should have been and that she was a bad example of a Witness no thanks to them. :(

  • WontLeave
    WontLeave

    she believes we can't understand it correctly without the explanation of the "faithful slave"

    This is the most insane JW teaching of all. They deny Scripture with this teaching and put their faith in men, in the process. If the Bible can't be understood, then why read it at all? Just let the Society tell you what to believe. ...wait... That's what JWs do, already. Ask her how this belief fits with

    All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work. - 2Tim 3:16-17

    and some of the other verses I already cited earlier.

    What's the point in God leaving us a book if we can't understand it and have to take somebody else's word for what it says? How is that different than the Catholic Church denying people access to Scripture. JWs point fingers at them for keeping the Bible from people, but if the people can't understand it, then what does it matter? If she can't understand the Bible and it's in some kind of secret code only a human mediator can decipher, then who's to say the Trinity isn't in there and she just can't see it? What about Hell? Immortal soul? It could all really be in there, but she can't see it because she's not one of the chosen ones.

    You might also want to point out the order of events in Mat 24. While the understanding of the "faithful and discreet slave" being human overlords is ridiculous and completely unscriptural, beyond that, does the Bible indicate Jesus has decided who's faithful and who's wicked, yet? v45-51 is the first time this distinction is made, yet back in v29 is "Immediately after the tribulation". How did the decision of the fds get made back in 1919 if Jesus doesn't decide until after the Great Tribulation?

  • ABibleStudent
    ABibleStudent

    Hi wannabefree, jgnat has posted great advice in other threads such as "For your wife, addingnew hobbies, interests, and activities might bring her around. You're generally a positive guy anyways. She should enjoy that." in An Intro and apology. The fact that your wife has not called the JC probably means either she loves you a lot and/or has doubts herself that she is not willing to tell you. In my opinion removing your self-imposed dead-line will help you to think of more options for your fade. For the time being you might promise to your wife not to show "Crisis of Conscience" to your daughter if she will spend more time with you reading the Bible, praying, and agree to help delay your daughter from being baptized for another year. Reading the Bible and praying more with your wife may help her see that you have not lost your spirituality.

    It should be easy to help your daughter by scheduling father-daugther time with each other. Take your daughter to the mail, talk to your daugther about her dreams and desires, encourage her to make friends with non-JW classmates, who your wife may feel are acceptable Worldly associations. If you can schedule more fun with your family as a family, it might convince your wife how much you love her. Also, help your wife to make non-JW friendships with people who share common interests that both of you have.

    Good-luck!! You should post regularly about your experiences to help others as well as to reduce your own frustrations.

    Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

    ABibleStudent

  • moshe
    moshe
    but I feel for the sake of my daughter, I must move this along more quickly.

    -a nice worldly boyfriend would get her mind off all things JW - Have a school friend- (she does have worldly friends from school, right?) set up a Facebook page for her and then add friends from school, make friends with worldly people of good character, set up a cookout- end of school year party and let her invite school friends- not KH kids, just so she can see that worldly people/kids are good people. - start talking and planning about a career/college. Volunteer at a charity, then get your family to volunteer, too. Actions, not words against the WT org are needed here.

  • Scully
    Scully

    The best advice I have on helping your wife and daughter is something I shared with Aussie Oz about a week ago.

    The best thing you can teach your daughter is that The Headship Principle™ is a steaming pile of horse$h!t.

    Build her confidence, encourage her to develop leadership skills that will help her when she needs to start thinking about getting a job.

    Don't, under any circumstances, support the idea that she must obey or defer to anyone with a penis, especially if the goal of doing so is to put her interests on the back burner in favour of their own. Remind her that she has the right to be treated fairly and as an equal in all areas of life. Part of overcoming the Headship™ spell is letting her know that it is okay for her to say NO when a man is trying to get her to do something unreasonable that she doesn't want to do, or is attempting to prevent her from doing something reasonable that she wishes to do. Let her practise that with you, by teaching her negotiating skills.

    You'll probably hate it at some point, but you don't want her to turn into some JW's Submissive™ little wifey, do you?

    Your daughter's ambitions, at this point of her life, should not include becoming tethered to an Organization™ that will strike like a cobra and make an example of her for exploring the natural inclinations of youth. Jesus didn't get baptized until he was 30 years old, so there should be no rush for a young JW to get baptized if Jesus is truly the example people should emulate - except the WTS does pressure youth into baptism, don't they? Why is that? Could it be that they want that commitment for something other than the spiritual relationship with god that it is supposed to represent? For control over the person's behaviour and social milieu? Why do they discourage quick courtships and marriages in favour of getting to know a potential mate to the best of one's abilities, while at the same time promoting "quickie" Bible Studies™ and baptism, often with under a year or less of serious Bible Study™?

    Those are really important discussion points to cover with your wife and daughter. If your daughter is closer to graduating high school than not, take her on a tour of the local community college and see what kind of career choices interest her - let her pick up an armload of brochures to look at and start her thinking of that kind of a future, rather than the one the WTS has to offer.

  • Paralipomenon
    Paralipomenon

    Something might be to talk to your wife and find out why she got baptised. Honestly, not the company line. Even when I was a witness, most of my friends confided that it was to look more spiritual to impress a zealous sister, or to impress parents, or to reach out for more privleges (power).

    I can't think of a single one that said they did it because they prayed and felt a close personal bond with Jehovah.

    If you can get your wife's reason, you might be able to point out that her heart condition was wrong at the time even if it "worked out" in the long run. It would be responsible to let your daughter mature first and make the decision for the right reasons.

    At least it would buy you more time.

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