I dont like using "their" name for God

by jean-luc picard 99 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW
    If it is a mistranslation, it is a consistent mistranslation that harmonises with the rest of how the Hebrew bible has been translated in to English.
    The name has now established itself in English as can be seen in teh Monty Python clip on the first page,
    and Indiana Jones, as well as other stuff.....Mat

    A consistent mistranslation that harmonises with the rest of how the Hebrew bible has been translated in to English?

    Monty Python?..Indiana Jones?..

    Your safe

    No one is going to Mistake you for a Genius..

    ........................ ...OUTLAW

  • Mat
    Mat
    You keep missing the point, all those translation we have are from proper names and they have NOTHING to do with the term "jehovah".
    How can you see that putting TWO words to make one is just wrong, it make sno sense that God name is a combination of YHWH and adonai since both words mean different things.

    Let me explain. The proper names refered to have the same Hebrew letters as the tetragram- Yod and Waw (I think it is safe to say that 'He' is a H). Yod is always a J when transliterated in to English with proper names. Waw is always a V when transliterated in to English with proper names. The names listed were examples.

    So, the tetragram is JHVH in English, not YHWH.

    Outlaw, you are a cunt. Go fuck yourself!

  • undercover
    undercover

    A post I made on a thread I created several years ago...

    The Divine Name That Will Endure Forever

    That's the name of a brochure by the WTS that tries to impress upon us why what God's name is and why we should use it. We all know that Jehovah's Witnesses use the name "Jehovah" for God in all their bibles and publications. We were always taught that Jehovah was the acceptable pronounciation of God's name.

    They still teach that, but since people are more enlightened today than ever, and since more people than just Hebrew scholars can carry on a discussion about the original name, the WTS has had to get creative in justifying their use of the name Jehovah instead of more accurate usages such as Yahweh.

    Note some of these gems:

    How Is God's Name Pronounced?

    The truth is, nobody knows for sure how the name of God was originally pronounced. Why not? Well, the first language used in writing the Bible was Hebrew, and when the Hebrew language was written down, the writers wrote only consonants?not vowels. Hence, when the inspired writers wrote God's name, they naturally did the same thing and wrote only the consonants.

    While ancient Hebrew was an everyday spoken language, this presented no problem. The pronunciation of the Name was familiar to the Israelites and when they saw it in writing they supplied the vowels without thinking (just as, for an English reader, the abbreviation "Ltd." represents "Limited" and "bldg." represents "building").

    Two things happened to change this situation. First, a superstitious idea arose among the Jews that it was wrong to say the divine name out loud; so when they came to it in their Bible reading they uttered the Hebrew word 'Adho·nai' ("Sovereign Lord"). Further, as time went by, the ancient Hebrew language itself ceased to be spoken in everyday conversation, and in this way the original Hebrew pronunciation of God's name was eventually forgotten.

    In order to ensure that the pronunciation of the Hebrew language as a whole would not be lost, Jewish scholars of the second half of the first millennium C.E. invented a system of points to represent the missing vowels, and they placed these around the consonants in the Hebrew Bible. Thus, both vowels and consonants were written down, and the pronunciation as it was at that time was preserved.

    When it came to God's name, instead of putting the proper vowel signs around it, in most cases they put other vowel signs to remind the reader that he should say 'Adho·nai'. From this came the spelling Iehouah, and, eventually, Jehovah became the accepted pronunciation of the divine name in English. This retains the essential elements of God's name from the Hebrew original.

    So, if I understand this correctly, the name "Jehovah" came from the Hebrew word "Adho-nai". "Adho-nai" was a replacement for God's name. Any variation of "Adho-nai" would not be God's name but a variation of the title it replaced. It may contain the same consonants as the divine name but it's a variation, not the original. To me that's the same as buying a black market wristwatch that says Rulex instead of a genuine Rolex wristwatch.

    So what happened to YHWH? The brochure says this:

    Different scholars have different ideas about how the name YHWH was originally pronounced.

    In The Mysterious Name of Y.H.W.H., page 74, Dr. M. Reisel said that the "vocalisation of the Tetragrammaton must originally have been Y e HuàH or YaHuàH."

    Canon D. D. Williams of Cambridge held that the "evidence indicates, nay almost proves, that Jahwéh was not the true pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton . . . The Name itself was probably JAHÔH."?Zeitschrift für die alttestamentliche Wissenschaft (Periodical for Old Testament Knowledge), 1936, Volume 54, page 269.

    In the glossary of the French Revised Segond Version, page 9, the following comment is made: "The pronunciation Yahvé used in some recent translations is based on a few ancient witnesses, but they are not conclusive. If one takes into account personal names that include the divine name, such as the Hebrew name of the prophet Elijah (Eliyahou) the pronunciation might just as well be Yaho or Yahou."

    In 1749 the German Bible scholar Teller told of some different pronunciations of God's name he had read: "Diodorus from Sicily, Macrobius, Clemens Alexandrinus, Saint Jerome and Origenes wrote Jao; the Samaritans, Epiphanius, Theodoretus, Jahe, or Jave; Ludwig Cappel reads Javoh; Drusius, Jahve; Hottinger, Jehva; Mercerus, Jehovah; Castellio, Jovah; and le Clerc, Jawoh, or Javoh."

    Thus it is evident that the original pronunciation of God's name is no longer known. Nor is it really important. If it were, then God himself would have made sure that it was preserved for us to use. The important thing is to use God's name according to its conventional pronunciation in our own language.

    The highlighted comments jumped out at me. The original pronuniciation is no longer known nor is it important. Hmmm. What was the name of this brochure again?

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Let me explain. The proper names refered to have the same Hebrew letters as the tetragram- Yod and Waw (I think it is safe to say that 'He' is a H). Yod is always a J when transliterated in to English with proper names. Waw is always a V when transliterated in to English with proper names. The names listed were examples.

    So, the tetragram is JHVH in English, not YHWH.

    The quote function seems to not work right now...

    anyways....

    Mat, I am not sure how many ways I cna say it, if you don't understand what I have been saying then there is nothing more to say.

    As has been shown over and over, none of that has anything to do with Jehovah being a combination of YHWH and the word/title adonai.

    Soemthing that the WT freely admits.

    Jehovah is NOT a translation or tranliteration of YHWH or any other name in the OT, it just isn't. Period.

  • Mat
    Mat

    However, Undercover, I do agree with this statement at the end of the quote:

    The important thing is to use God's name according to its conventional pronunciation in our own language.

    ..which is what I'm saying. It's all very well if people want to redress the English language, but what is established is established. A bigger concern to me (because I don't believe God has anything to do with any of it- even if he did exist) is that the JW's are becoming the guardians of this already established word because no one else is using it. This gives them some kind of authority they do not deserve.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    Outlaw, you are a cunt. Go fuck yourself!......Mat

    Can you Translate that into Hebrew ?..

    According to you Accuracy isn`t Important..So feel Free to Make Up anything You Like..

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_iKcZ3qcCmyo/SRNlmc6IB7I/AAAAAAAAK7o/p-4mKi-2yzg/s400/nutty-professor-old.jpg

    ........................ ...OUTLAW

  • Mat
    Mat

    Jehovah is NOT a translation or tranliteration of YHWH or any other name in the OT, it just isn't. Period.

    PSacramento, have you stopped to think that I do know what you are saying, and I disagree, and it is you who is refusing to understand?

    Jehovah is a translation of the Hebrew word "Yoh- He- Waw- He". It is established and recognised, and it works. It's not pronounced the same as in Hebrew, but then neither is Moses, or any other proper name. I have already explained why and how and I'm not repeating myself.

  • undercover
    undercover

    The issue with the WTS is that for decades they trumpeted far and wide that they and pretty much only they use God's name. And that God meant for people to use his name. And the WTS brags.... "Who taught you God's name?"

    Yet as more and more people learned that "Jehovah" is actually not God's name, but a mistranslation, then the WTS had to come up with a good story to make it okay to use "Jehovah" and make it as acceptable as what scholars actually think it is.

    I have an uncle...Uncle Dick is his name. Well, actually that's not his name. But that's all I've ever known him as. Everyone in the family has called him Dick for as long as I can remember. His real name, on his birth certificate, his driver's license and any other important, legal document is "Richard". Dick is a nickname and does derive from Richard somehow, but it is not his proper name. He answers to it, we all know him by it but technically, legally, it is not his name.

    Now, if someone perfers to use "Jehovah" over a more proper prounciation, then that's their choice. But don't use that name and then tell me that it is God's legal name. It's not. It's Dick. God is a Dick.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    PSacramento, have you stopped to think that I do know what you are saying, and I disagree, and it is you who is refusing to understand?

    No, you don't see what I am asaying and this is proof:

    Jehovah is a translation of the Hebrew word "Yoh- He- Waw- He". It is established and recognised, and it works. It's not pronounced the same as in Hebrew, but then neither is Moses, or any other proper name. I have already explained why and how and I'm not repeating myself.

    Dude, for the last time, Jehovah is NOT a translation of YHWH, it is a translation of YHWH AND the VOWELS from the word/title ADONAI that means "lord".

    It is TWO DIFFERENT WORDS combined in ERROR and translated in ERROR.

  • Mat
    Mat

    PSacramento. You have a hang up over the vowels to Adonai being attributed to the English transliteration of the tetragram. Tell me, which vowels would you prefer?

    That said, why would you rather the consonants YHWH over JHVH?

    I prefur JHVH because it is consistent with EVERY OTHER NAME IN THE BIBLE but I guess that counts for nothing with you. So please- 1) which vowels, and 2) why the Y and W instead of J and V?

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