I'm with you Black Sheep! I really don't understand why some people say don't talk to them at all. When you know the truth about them there is nothing to fear.
Advice needed about my study with a JW.
by Resistance is Futile 25 Replies latest jw friends
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steve2
I really don't understand why some people say don't talk to them at all.
I, for my part, don't understand why some people study with the JWs when they have no intention of joining but who develop the desire to "reach" the JWs.
On the other hand, I'm all for discussions with JWs and others who are inquiring and curious about different points of view. I acknowledge that by trying to persuade the JW, you may well plant a good seed or two of doubt. However, these sorts of gentle persuasions are more likely to end with both sides being more convinced than before they are right and the other is wrong. I'd rather play golf or watch paint dry.
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Mat
However, these sorts of gentle persuasions are more likely to end with both sides
being more convinced than before they are right and the other is wrong. I'd rather
play golf or watch paint dry.
The point is that JW's are not inquiring or curious because they have no reason to be, and they have no reason to be because no on ever says anything to them to make them question.
Someone has to make the effort. Do you really sit around (watching paint dry) expecting a curious JW to come up to you and ask you why their view point is wrong? Some of us ar'nt so inhuman as to leave them to their ignorence.
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DesirousOfChange
The primary doctrine that keeps them trapped is that Jesus selected them, in 1919, to be God's sole channel in our day. Don't put that to him. Just ask questions that get him to state all of those elements. Then ask how he knows this happened in 1919.
I seriously doubt if the average JDub knows the whole schpiel verbatim. You would have draw it out, perhaps with a conversation such as:
"Why JWs instead of just any Christian religion? Don't they all lead to the same place?"
"JWs are the sole channel God uses today, just as in the past, the Bible record shows God only used one channel at any given time through history, Noah, Moses, Nation of Israel, Christian Cong.......then the foretold apostasy set in, wheat mixed in with weeds (true Christianity in with Christendom), until the onset of the "last days" when JC arrived and selected out JWs [actually Russell & Bible Students]......"
If you asked WHEN specifically............I bet you would get a variety of answers from different JDubs -- blank stares; 1914; 1918;........then maybe 1919. Ask for written statement from WT publications for this evidence, probably with quote of Matt 24:45.
NOW, SOMEONE ELSE WANT TO TAKE IT FROM HERE. WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE THEM DO WITH 1919?
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inbetween
fact is, the average witness isnt aware of 1919,proof for them is John 13:35 and Matthew 24:14
love among themselves
and the preaching wordlwide.
For a witness, these arguments cannot be easily overthrown. The reasons are :
1) love among themselves: It comes down to personal opinions and experiences. If you meet a happy dub (even though the happiness might be only on the surface) he is brainwashed into appreciating the world-wide brotherhood. The shunning policy, as a proof the the conditional state of this love, will not count, since it is presented as a loving way, unless he personally experienced it and thought about it deeper (most don't)
2) preaching, while it is obvious, that others participate in preaching in one way or the other, dubs are convinced that only they are recognized by it. Which is true, just look at the media, often portraying witnesses either being on the street or knocking one someones door.
Therefore, unless you have the time and energy to discuss these matters deeply, I would take another road.
Lets say, for arguments sake, the love shown and the preaching are indeed Gods will. So, does this mean, if an org does Gods will, they become automatically Gods org ? Lets say, the catholic church, they, even witnesses must admit, in some areas do Gods will. they distribute Gods word, they entertain charities etc...does this make them Gods org ?
So in order to be Gods org, an organisation must do everything according to Gods will ? So then, why were there changes with JW, regarding pagan traditions for example (christmas until the 20's ) ? Or matters like voting, civil service, blood fractions, organ transplants ?
Even if JW today do everything according to God swill, who really can determine this ? Only God himself, right ? So, were is his approval shown ? What certificate did he give ? O r what clear sign of his approval, that can only be traced to divine origin ?
How does he correct his org, as he did in the past ? In israel he sent his prophets to set matter straight, whom does he send today, since even JW admit the org is not perfect and need correction ? How is this done ?
Finally the fact that an org does everythign according to Gods will does not mean, God has an organisation ! This is a different matter. For example, he used organisations in the past (Isreal) who did often not things according to Gods will, and still were his org.
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jgnat
Since your study has openly discussed how shunning has affected his life, you have an instant exit card. Tell him you are "stumbled" by this practice and could not possibly join an organization that could turn on you at any time. Express your sorrow over the broken relationships in your study leader's life. Let him squirm. If he quotes some scripture about following Jesus dividing households, tell him you never expected Gods' house to be doing the dividing. Isn't Jehovah a God of love?
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WontLeave
One pioneer I was trying to make think, I asked when God chose the "faithful and discreet slave" and she said Abraham was the first. I had a pioneer who came to my door tell me the fds has existed since the apostles and all along until now. She told me how they have the remnant of the 144k as their leaders. It's so sad, because she's a long-timer and a pioneer, so how can she not know things about JW doctrine I knew within a year of becoming one?
It's extremely difficult to have a discussion with people who don't have any clue what they're talking about, but insist they're teaching you. I've discovered the JWs aren't really as concerned about doctrine as they'd lead us to believe. For instance, while the Watchtower states over and over the Society isn't "inspired" and neither is its literature, people have been saying it left and right without any problems.
This is how it became so obvious to me the Watchtower organization actually exists to promote the worship of the Society, not God. And they'll accept any worship, even if someone has the doctrine all wrong. The doctrine is just a means to an end, anyway. They use the truthful parts are to lure people in and the made-up parts are to control the membership. If someone is being a good little doormat, they really don't care if you have the beliefs all wrong.
That's just the cost of doing business for JWs; you cater to the poor, ignorant, mentally ill, and mentally challenged and you have to deal with all their issues. But as long as they're bowing before the golden calf and pushing Watchtowers using their own gas, what difference does it make?
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Jankyn
Only good thing about the JWs: They're not going to spring Xenu and aliens in volcanoes on you.
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steve2
Someone has to make the effort. Do you really sit around (watching paint dry) expecting a curious JW to come up to you and ask you why their view point is wrong? Some of us ar'nt so inhuman as to leave them to their ignorence.
Um, we may just disagree on the more efective means of communicating - that's all. I didn't say I'd just sit around waiting for JWs to present themselves to me. read my post agian, please.
As a JW I went around the block so to speak way too much trying to persuade people that my beliefs were right and theirs were wrong. Since then I've grown up and discovered that timing is more important - and acceptance of where people are at: That requires humility on my part and patience, among other qualities. Call that inhumane if you will, but your labelling me mystifies me.
The drive to change people's beliefs is ultimately wrong-headed and simply perpetuates the JW mindset in another setting (e.g., "I am right and you are wrong and everything we talk about will be a means of me proving I'm right.....") Life should be infinitely more than "just" marshalling" resources to rescue people from perceived or actual error.
Many on this forum are living proof that they were not "talked out" of the organization but did their own investigations and inquiries and formed their own opinions and conclusions free from doctrinal arguments with others who had already left or had never been JWs in the first place.
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Resistance is Futile
Thanks everyone for all the great advice. How often is 1919 even mentioned in Watchtower material anymore? If I bring up obscure teachings he might go on the defensive, realizing that I know a lot more about the religion than I’ve let on. I’ll certainly ask about it if I find a safe lead-in to the subject. I've already started to ask questions about the convoluted mess of the 1914 doctrine, but I get the impression that the current generation of born-ins is fairly oblivious to 1919. As "inbetween" mentioned the average JW doesn't even need invisible Jesus picking them to support the belief that they have the "truth". A few cherry picked scriptures such as Matthew 24:14 is all that’s needed if they began to doubt any of the teachings of the Society. "Where else will we go? Who else is preaching worldwide?"
steve2, I certainly understand where you're coming from. But, this isn't some wide-eyed home schooled door knocking stranger I'm "studying" with. It's a family member, and from what I can tell a fairly intelligent young adult. I certainly don't expect miracles to happen from this study. Most of the members of this forum were at one point in the exact same position his is in. I realize that I have a very short window of opportunity, if I keep asking difficult questions the study will eventually end. At that point I can walk away knowing I did as much as I could with the opportunity that was presented to me. He's already mentioned that he doesn't "associate" with non-members. So the only way I can even discuss the doctrines of the Watchtower with him is by showing interest as a potential recruit. I certainly don’t feel as though the study is a waste of time.