How the WTBTS creates atheists (page 4)

poopsiecakes

Believers who rail against religion confuse me. The only reason their belief in god exists is because of the amazing snow job religion has done on people for millenia. Otherwise, they would realize that just like their parents bought their Christmas gifts and put the money under their pillow when they lost a tooth, it's all imagination in an attempt to control behavior. "If you're bad, you'll be on Santa's naughty list and you won't get the present you want". There's really no difference, but at some point kids realize that it's all kinda silly to believe in Santa. Flying around the world and visiting every family in one night? Really? No WAY! and poof! Santa isn't real anymore. The bible is full of those flights of fancy, but thanks to religion people see it as fact - the bible is written by HIM so be good or you'll be on HIS naughty list, the bible says so. You can say all you want that religion is the problem, and you're right. But until you realize that religion is the ONLY reason you believe what you believe, your arguments fall flat.

SirNose586

Inconsistency did it for me, along with the skepticism that leaving the org creates, as others mentioned. The Bible is filled with plenty of scenes of god kicking ass all over the place. So....do I get to see that? Even a little something divine?

Nope. Never felt anything like that, never experienced anything that I couldn't explain by normal means.

I don't think any named deity from a religion exists. Could a god or god-like thing be out there? I don't know. I am skeptical of there being something like that out there.

If some god or godlike thing shows up, kicks ass, and demands worship, I'll do what it asks.

still thinking

sorry you feel so confused poopsiecakes....it is a shame that you cannot see the differnce between faith and religion.

Jesus did not belong to a religion. He was raised a Jew but still knew that what they taught was false. He warned us about the teachings of men. What religion do you think the bible writers belonged to? Could it be that they were just following Christ and God?

To compare belief in God to belief in Santa is something else. Do you actually think anyone other than children believe in Santa? Most of them don't. (unless you count 3 year olds).

God draws us to him. In fact he is not far from any of us. WE mess up by looking for him in the wrong places.

tec

But until you realize that religion is the ONLY reason you believe what you believe, your arguments fall flat.

I guess that depends on how you see things. What came first: religion or belief? I would say that belief came first, and religion followed. So you don't need religion to have belief.

Believing in a certain way, or according to certain doctrines and creeds - now that falls to religion, for the most part.

But believing that we would not have an accurate knowledge without religion is completely overlooking 'direct revelation from God' such as with Paul, and other people today, even on this forum. Now who are you supposed to believe, becomes the question, when their 'revelations' conflict? I get that. But it is still there, and I do believe that with or without religion, the Spirit would be guiding those who belong to God and to Christ. Some would still believe. Maybe not many, but certainly some.

As for the Santa example, we know he isn't real (the man in the red suit who flies around the world in one night with reindeer, etc). We know he isn't real because we're the ones who made him up. We can trace his evolution. That's why kids one day realize he isn't real. They've been told, they catch their parents with the presents, they find out that their parents made him up.

We don't know that anyone made up God, or Christ. As far as we know, and there is no evidence to the contrary (theories perhaps), everyone who wrote about and followed God (or any version of a creator) believed that a creator is real.

Tammy

JustHuman14

I don't think so that WT does create atheists. It is a matter of personal choice, or most of all a long time research. I have also left WT, then I studied Christianity, then I decided to go through the Hebrew Scriptures, since Christianity comes from another religion, the Hebrew.

When I have done a serious examination of the Hebrew Scriptures (examine history, science of that era) the result was the Old Testament was nothing more than copy of older myths (Sumerian & Egyptian). Many stories never occurred, like the Hebrew captivity in Egypt and their Exodus. There is not a single evidence that 3 million Jews left Egypt during 1450 B.C and spend 40 years hanging around in the desert!!! Also there are many disturbing facts of the Hebrew God, he orders genocides in many cases, did war crimes, and atrocities. There is humiliating attitude towards women, for instance according to the Mosaic Law if she didn't scream loud enough in a rape attack she is guilty and she must stone to death. Or if she shouts loud then the rapper must give to her father 50 sickles of silver and he can get married of her!!!

There is many other staff like that, for instance Cain went to the land of Nod and got married and he builds a city!!! Or Lot's daughters that have sex with their father in order to bring offspring for him!!! Even in the Mosaic Law there is no mention of sex between father and daughter, thus women are considered mans belonging.

I have my points for Christianity as well, especially when I came through the Gnostic Gospels but I consider Jesus teachings universal, since they are based upon the universal law of love.

I like to question everything in order to come to a final result. I'm not an atheist. I believe there is a Creator behind everything, but I do not believe that He/She is behind any organized religion.

Curtains

still thinking you make some great points

I agree that belief came before religion and that belief is worth holding on to. But even before belief there was something else - a sense that there was more and a desire that there was more. these two taken together imo produce belief. Jehovahs witnesses imo are an exaggeration of these 2 activities. I think I retain these even as an atheist but not to an exaggerated level.

sizemik

What the Watchtower does to create atheists, like me, is when you are already convinced that all other religions are false and you finally come to realise that the Watchtower is false, too, then there's not much left to hang onto for the rest of your lifetime.

They are all false. It's only a problem however if you feel a need to "hang on to" a religion ie; to have a set of beliefs that find agreement with others.

Few atheists belong to atheist organisations . . . but they still have a belief . . . ie; God doesn't exist . . . but this too cannot be proved, so it's only a belief.

Recognising that all organised religion is false does not preclude faith or personal belief . . . theist or atheist, IMO.

AK - Jeff

I do find the believer's desire to divorce religion and belief interesting, to say the least.

Good points poopsicakes.

Jeff

Nickolas

Like Jeff, I too would embrace god if he manifested himself in some unmistakable way - and by that I mean a way that is unmistakable to me personally. It's not that I think I'm special, because I realise how terribly insignificant I am. And perceiving god in a daffodil doesn't count, because I look at a daffodil and I see a product of natural selection. I might cite the resurrection of my parents as a good example of something unmistakable to me personally. Do that, god, and I will prostrate myself before you, but I will still wonder why it was necessary for them to die so horribly.

While I acknowledge that there is a small minority of scientists who are also theists, I have yet to see any of them put forward a solid scientific argument for the existence of god. While their arguments have at time masqueraded as scientific - I cite for example the multiple failed attempts to demonstrate ID - in the end they are all without exception philosophical, and philosophy does not constitute observable, measurable evidence, as convincing as it can be. A good example of the phenomenon is Bertrand Russell's revelation as a young man that the ontological argument for the existence of god was sound. Himself a Nobel prize winning philosopher and agnostic, he would come to realise that he had been merely caught up in a philosophical paradox. In 1946 he would write:

"The real question is: Is there anything we can think of which, by the mere fact that we can think of it, is shown to exist outside our thought? Every philosopher would like to say yes, because a philosopher's job is to find out things about the world by thinking rather than observing. If yes is the right answer, there is a bridge from pure thought to things. If not, not."

A philosopher, as has been defined by others far more intelligent than I am (including philosophers themselves), is someone who won't take common sense for an answer. It is in some ways a compliment. In others an acknowlegement that what they have to say exists only in thought and what exists only in thought cannot be observed and measured and, therefore, does not constitute evidence.

nancy drew

It seems to me that none of the models work religions/evolution the only thing I know is we are here on this planet. I don't know what we are or what to expect.

I feel like someone who has been obsessed with the search for the meaning of life only to end up empty-handed and it doesn't make me happy but I continue looking at whatever I can find till I run out of time.

How the WTBTS creates atheists

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