How the WTBTS creates atheists

by Nickolas 103 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Nickolas

  I disagree...I feel that Nick can be condescending and patronizing.

  While recognising that text communication suffers from its lack of vocal intonation, facial expression and body language and as a consequence lends itself to misunderstanding, I acknowledge that my diplomacy when I disagree with someone is sometimes terrible. I have also been accused of arrogance, probably not without good reason. Given my insignificance I really should aspire to be more humble. My apologies. It's just the way I am. But if I pay you a compliment it is heartfelt.

  I can't be sure what the reference to believing in magic is based on.

  The reference within the context of this thread was wrt at least some religious belief. The topic of intelligent design/creation vs evolution comes up on this board frequently. If God created the universe and all that is in it, how did he go about doing it? From my perspective, a theist who believes that God caused the Big Bang and set things on a course that resulted in the formation of galaxies, stars, planets and eventually life is more rational than a theist who believes that God just caused things to suddenly appear a la Genesis, like a magician waving his wand and pulling a rabbit out of a hat.

  Thanks for the link, NomadSoul. Very interesting site.
• 

  tec

  Tammy

  Trevor ;)

  I understand what you're saying about inner voice. I attribute that to our consciences - as well as the feelings that come with remaining true or untrue to our conscience. This is something we have always had. It is that immediate feeling or voice telling us we should or should not do something. Our conscience is based on our own values, mind you, so we can still screw up if we listen to it and our values are wrong, even if our consciences are clear.

  I believe this is why we need something (or someone) else to look to, to measure our personal conscience against. For me, this is Christ. Once I believe as he believes (light within me), then I can trust my conscience to be reflecting the love of Christ. To date, I might have that in some things, but not in all things.

  I was not really speaking about our inner voice/conscience though. I was speaking about something more powerful. It is more of a knowing that is more abstract (for lack of a better word) - perhaps because I am unused to it. Since it's quite new to me and I'm still exploring it, its hard to put into words, and I hate trying to explain something that I don't fully understand myself yet. I don't like to come off as if I know something that I don't.

  Some people struggle with negative feelings of hate and self loathing. This can become a predominant part of their personality. When you have negative feeling, you attribute them to an opposing spiritual force. Have you considered the possibility that what you are hearing is your own inner voice?

  Oh, I totally believe it's my own inner voice. Pride, apathy, lack of love, weakness, cowardice - these things are within ME. But I don't always know when my pride is speaking, or cowardice, etc... until I test what I'm doing or feeling against the Spirit of Christ. I think that's what I'm getting at when I say test the spirit of things (selfishness, prideful spirit, cowardly spirit) against the Spirit of Christ. I'm not really talking about demonic spirits or anything like that.

  I know you place great value on your relationship with Jesus. If it helps you to make sense of you life and emotion, then it serves a purpose. On the other, perhaps you should give yourself more credit for the kindness and love that you demonstrate so abundantly in your life.

  I'm not sure love gives itself credit for things. I don't think it really cares about credit one way or the other... it just cares about doing and acting in love. Credit doesn't really enter into the equation.

  I appreciate your thoughts and wisdom as always, Trevor. You always give me something to think about.

  (gonna be late for work, gotta run!)

  Peace to you,

  Tammy
• 

  Nickolas

  Our conscience is based on our own values, mind you, so we can still screw up if we listen to it and our values are wrong, even if our consciences are clear.

  We have discussed this before, Tammy. I might relocate the thread if I dedicated a little time and effort. My contention has been that one does not need to believe in God or the Holy Bible to be a person of high moral values. Your reply was that you were not so sure. What determines whether or not our values are wrong? Certainly some of the moral lessons in the Bible are outmoded in today's context - slavery, capital punishment for minor offences, polygamy, genocide, etc - so does one need to pick and choose which values are right and which are wrong? If so, does it not follow that if our values are based on a simple pretext that we will carry one another and never do another harm (as what Jesus taught) then they cannot be wrong?

  My BIL was an openly immoral man before he found the Watchtower. He philandered, he lied, he stole, he abused all manner of illicit drug. The change in him to a loving, law-abiding husband and father is what caused me to listen to him about the Watchtower. He remarked to me recently, within the context of the anger his mother has expressed toward him for shunning his DF'ed son, that he is still the man he always was, despite what his faith causes him to do. I disagreed with him, saying if he was the man I knew before his association with the Watchtower he would not be welcome in my house. But extrapolate that further. If it is faith (in this case faith in the Watchtower, but it applies generally to people of faith) that causes people to be good, then is it real or affected? I'm not sure what my BIL would do, how he would behave, if he suddenly lost the moral compass he acquired when he found "The Truth". For myself, it did not change when I lost my faith. If anything, I may have even become more sensitive to the needs of others, acknowledging that I am still vulnerable to being insensitive when I am not paying attention to my words and behaviours. But if someone needs faith in order to be a good and moral person, it stands to reason that that person is best avoided because he is not a good and moral person at his core, does it not?
• 

  Pika_Chu

  @Tammy: I'm thinking the thought of God and religion are the same thing. You can have God without religion, but not religion without God. You said earlier that belief comes before religion, and I partly agree on that. Religions are evolved from beliefs and are the sum of beliefs regarding god. I think the idea that someone bigger than everyone else existed and had command over the elements and who decided the ultimate fate of everything was a good tool for ancients to use control and law enforcement (laws are better obeyed if someone believes it came from god and that severe punishment ensues for infractions. Plus, there's the whole "God sees everything you do and knows your motives" part of that whole thing).

  Reading your post on page 4, regarding the notion that God exists because he is believed in, I also partially agree. I mean, the fact that people believe in something doesn't make it real in a physical sense, but God indeed exists in the minds of believers (at the very least, he is a theoretical concept). Thoughts exist, but not physically. I think God is a thought and a state of mind, but not a real BEING, though. Commenting on posts further down that page, I disagree regarding the "in the spirit" philosophy. But that's simply because I don't believe in spirits.
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  ziddina

  "I would have thought the numbers (maybe even the %) would be less than, say, Afro-Americans who believe in voodoo? . . . or Irishmen who believe in Leprachauns? . . . dunno.

  Belief in magic is simply not something I've ever thought New Zealand would be recognised for . . . strange indeed. ..."

  I mis-spoke. I was thinking of the Polynesian systems of beliefs that tend towards a form of animism - the belief that volcanoes and oceans and forests have spirit creatures residing within them. Animism can have 'magical' rites associated with it.

  So the Maori don't believe in any form of animism, I take it??? They never make any sort of "offering" to propitiate the spirits???

  Zid
• 

  trevor

  Thanks for taking the time to reply Tammy. You seem to be very aware of where your emotions come from and what motivates you.

  What can I say except - take care.
• 

  tec

  I might relocate the thread if I dedicated a little time and effort. My contention has been that one does not need to believe in God or the Holy Bible to be a person of high moral values. Your reply was that you were not so sure.

  Did I say I wasn't sure? I think I've stated in a few places that I agree with your sentiment. I believe that some have the law (of love/compassion) written on their hearts and conscience by nature. Such as the gentiles who did the requirements of the law (of the jews) by nature, without every having had the law.

  I also can't speak for anyone but me, Nickolas.

  What determines whether or not our values are wrong? Certainly some of the moral lessons in the Bible are outmoded in today's context - slavery, capital punishment for minor offences, polygamy, genocide, etc - so does one need to pick and choose which values are right and which are wrong?

  I think you know that I don't follow anything in the bible over Christ - or what he taught by word and example. So I guess you could say that I 'pick and choose' according to Him.

  If so, does it not follow that if our values are based on a simple pretext that we will carry one another and never do another harm (as what Jesus taught) then they cannot be wrong?

  That would certainly be a beautiful thing.

  I can't really comment on your brother. I don't know him. Perhaps (and taking him at his word) the clear rules and guidelines help him to behave in a manner that is good toward others? Perhaps his love for Christ helps him do things that, in his nature, he would ignore.

  Sometimes I'm just following the rules Christ gave us, too. For example, a while ago I was walking home from the store and noticed the side door on the house next to us was open and slamming against the house. That house had just sold and no one lived there yet. But my first instinct was to just ignore it and keep walking, and so I did. Then stopped, thinking of Christ, and turned around, walked up the drive and shut their door so the house would not be damaged.

  A very simple thing that I wanted to just ignore, but didn't because I thought of Christ. (I know that is hardly a life/death example, but just to make my point...)

  I follow Christ because I love Him, and I know He is Truth. It would be best (and the goal, I believe) if these rules/reminders were simply written on my conscience and heart. I think as we grow in our love, this happens more and more within us. I think that is what Christ wanted for us as well - "clean the inside of the cup and the outside will be clean = get our hearts right and fill up with light, and our actions will reflect that light and love".

  I think knowing Christ does change us, Nick. I think He has changed me, and still is. Perhaps some of us just need to start out by loving and following Him.

  But if someone needs faith in order to be a good and moral person, it stands to reason that that person is best avoided because he is not a good and moral person at his core, does it not?

  Is it the healthy who need a doctor? Or the sick? And if we avoid our sick, then don't they just die alone?

  Christ came to save. That would imply that He came for those of us who need (and want) saving.

  Peace,

  Tammy
• 

  tec

  You can have God without religion, but not religion without God.

  Oh, I think you can have religion without God, Pikachu. I'm convinced that we have this every day. Perhaps not without the idea of a God, though.

  Sorry, being contentious ;)

  I understand your thoughts as well. We just disagree on what we believe if behind 'God'.

  Peace,

  Tammy
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  Pika_Chu

  @Tammy: I define religion as belief in God (personal or impersonal), along with a set of rules, regulations, and rituals. I was thinking along the lines of how difficult it would be for someone to have something like that WITHOUT God, but it depended on my definition anyway.
• 

  Nickolas

  Did I say I wasn't sure? (Tammy)

  This was the thread, Tammy. Yours was the second post.

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/208508/1/Belief-does-not-define-character