A few Dawkins quotes to think about. (page 25)

PSacramento

ps: Yes, basically because cooporation is advantageous and will arise spontaneously. You should worry i am making a tautology here (why is cooporation advantageous? because otherwise evolution would have breed it out. Why do we coorporate? because we evolved that way...), but this is seen again and again both in artificial life simulations (where the robots "learn" to coorporate) and in game theory.

I think the results in game theory is particulary strong. Particulary the tit-for-tat strategy arise as a nash equilibrium (nash. eq. mean that it is unfavorable for any agent to select another strategy) in a very general game:

Be generally good to others when you meet them.

Do to others what they did to you. (eg. if they coorporated, continue coorporation. If they cheated and left you out to dry, dont coorporate)

forgive when they change strategy.

Notice this is how most of us will try to act. Ofcourse this is a very crude model, in particular games with many agents where a "reputation" is involved are very prone to favor coorporative behaviour as nash equilibrium, it is interesting how "reputation" play a huge role in human society.

I am not sure how this applies to why suffering bothers us...

At what point in human evolution did we evolove into these "beliefs"?

Suffering bothers us because it is part of our evolved mechanism of procreation and survival, which includes an emotion we have labeled "love". Did god give us love or did we as a species develop it on our own? An answer in a question might be, if we did not have love, would we have been so successful as a species? Yes, there's a great deal of the opposite number in our makeup, too, but no infant survived into adolescence, childhood and adulthood because his mother despised him.

PSacramento

I see the old chestnut that atheism = faith is alive and well. I think you have a pretty good grasp on what atheism really is, but there are still a few blanks you need to fill in.

My faith in atheisim was a tad tongue and cheek, BUT I do admire how Sam believes that atheisim can answer all of lifes questions, that is a type of faith, yes?

Vox Day, as you realise, is a play on the Latin "Vox Dei" which of course means "The Voice of God". Just a little pretentious, don't you think?

Very much so, and while I am not a fan of his "superior intellect posturing" ( or anyone elses for that matter), he dismantles Sam's arguments with backed up facts in his book, the irrational atheist.

As for Sam's comment, I am goin on memory so forgive me if I am wrong and don't hold my memory as 100%, but I think that Dawkins said something to the fact of " bringing some one up religion is the worse form of child abuse" or something to that effect.

The comparing of religion to horrific events that happen to people is a pretty common ploy of the more "militant" atheists, just as is their insinuation that believers are less inteligent or more ignorant.

That said, some believers deserves to be viewed as such.

trevor

"I am not sure how this applies to why suffering bothers us...

At what point in human evolution did we evolove into these "beliefs"?"

It must have been when god decided to seperate ape families and placed a soul in a chosen few.

PSacramento

Suffering bothers us because it is part of our evolved mechanism of procreation and survival, which includes an emotion we have labeled "love". Did god give us love or did we as a species develop it on our own? An answer in a question might be, if we did not have love, would we have been so successful as a species? Yes, there's a great deal of the opposite number in our makeup, too, but no infant survived into adolescence, childhood and adulthood because his mother despised him.

A valid point, yet somehow humans evolved into humans without the notion of "love" or our view on "suffering", or was it always there?

Why did ancient man not have this "notion" as he conqured and destroyed quite eagerly?

At what point did this "thing" manifest itself?

bohm

ps:

well, lets say that coorporation is good , that its a stable nash equilibrium, and that evolution can find it. (lets just assume that is so). How will that look from our POW? Evolution will try to hardcode certain things into our brains which make us coorporate (in an advantageous way), which will make us try to build our reputation, etc.. Basically we will feel we should do some particular thing in some situation. Helping others avoid suffering may be such a thing.

Evolution does not care it has to "pay the price" of having us help cats down trees or donate money (anonymously) to charities because those are small expenses contrasted to the huge advantage in doing something which will build our reputation or will make us coorporate in one of the situations where there is a huge payout later.

Notice evolution has no interest in making us evolve in such a way we try to "game the social system": we will make us evolve in such a way we hate people who try to "game the social system", making it an unattractive strategy (from a purely evolutionary POW).

We can ask ourself how the rest of the society respond to us if we (1) tend not to care how if other suffer (2) do care. I will claim the later tend to be largely advantageous.

Nickolas

ancient man had love in bucketloads for his own tribe, the suffering of which he could not tolerate, particularly if it could be alleviated by conquering and destroying those who were not his own and taking what they had for what was perceived to be a greater good. It is the way it was, and the way it still is.

AGuest

As to your final comments, Shelby, you leave me speechless.

I truly hope it wasn't that I offended, dear Nick (peace to you!), as I absolutely did not intend to. I also hope it wasn't me sharing some manners in which I try to help others' "suffering" in my own small way. I didn't do it to blow a horn; I did only to say that I try to do what I can, which isn't great, but it's something... and it's right in my own backyard. Because I have been in the place of the folks I help, at one point or another in my life, once not even having sustenance and covering for myself and two very small children. So, I know what they know. And, there... but for the grace of God...

Again, peace to you all!

A slave of Christ,

SA, who asserts that suffering is subjective, in MANY cases, but changed her mind about posting her previous comments in light of the direction of the discussion...

sabastious

Suffering bothers us because it is part of our evolved mechanism of procreation and survival, which includes an emotion we have labeled "love". Did god give us love or did we as a species develop it on our own? An answer in a question might be, if we did not have love, would we have been so successful as a species? Yes, there's a great deal of the opposite number in our makeup, too, but no infant survived into adolescence, childhood and adulthood because his mother despised him.

The problem is that we only have a single point of reference: ours. If we somehow came into contact with an alien species that evolved somewhere else in the universe then we could cross reference.

The question is: Does love itself evolve or is it just something we uncovered. Is it a force of nature that existed before us (like gravity) or is it a construct of the conscious mind?

-Sab

AGuest

It must have been when god decided to seperate ape families and placed a soul in a chosen few.

Isn't interesting that, while they can't vocalize, female apes still tend to show affection (love) for their young (and males tend to consider them a nuisance when they're young - LOL!)? I can't tell if you're being sarcastical, dear Trev (peace to you!), but for those who believe what you've posted (and I know a LOT of "christians" do), the statement is ridiculous. There is not difference between man and beast other than vessel and... [some levels of] intellect. They think and feel just as we do. True, they can't do quantum physics (at least, not with the vessels they have), but they're not all as "dumb" as some arrogantly believe they are.

Just had to add that.

Again, peace to you!

A slave of Christ,

SA

A few Dawkins quotes to think about.

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