How should I respond to a JW friend? (Australia)

by summerinvincible 115 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  summerinvincible

  I wrote: I didn't know other churches also predicted 1914. Which ones? ...
  So, just wondering what you think of Camping now that his prediction failed?... What would you say to someone who believed his explanation that Judgement Day was invisible, and who was still convinced he was acting for God?

  Her answer: i have printed out some bits from the book and will send,but it mentions on page 134 about some Bible commentators and a British clergyman who had researched the end of the Gentile times and came to 1914.anyway,its heavy reading,but take a look.the book also goes into the things that we have not got totally right over the years,and the adjustments that were made,so it is candid.the scriptures are mentioned in it to check.I don't have any particular feeling about the Camping man,and I wasn't worried about his prediction as there are certain events that have to happen first and in God's time,not for us to know the exact date.2Peter3:9 says that God is not slow as regards his promises,but is paient because he doesnt want any to be destroyed.Before the flood,the people of Noah's time were warned of the destruction that was coming,but they didn't listen.Today the witnessing work is partly to warn people that God has a time to destroy the wicked and cleanse the earth.It wouldnt be fair of God to judge people without their knowledge and he is not capable of acting deceitfully or unjustly.Psalms 37:28.He has allowed mankind to rule themselves(something Adam and Eve chose to do)for thousands of years,and man has just got worse,not better.Despite advances in technology and medicine,there is more sickness,pollution crime,poverty and so on than ever before!The earth is getting ruined beyond what human intervention can ever fix.Basically,we believe what the Bible says about the coming war of Jehovah-Armageddon.but it's not a warfare that we physically take part in.Before that happens,the governments will turn on false religion and remove it.Then the governments will see those still practicing their beliefs(witnessing) and then God will step in and defend his people .I would have to show you a book that analyzes the book of Revelation to explain this,as it is pretty deep.Isaiah 2:1-4,talks about the final days when people will be instructed in God's ways,and he will set matters straight respecting many peoples,rendering judgement anong the nations.and noone will learn war anymore,,,.From this and other scriptures,people will know about the judgement,There are many people who are honestly trying to ascertain the truth about matters pertaining to Judgement day etc,and that's commendable.However,not all religions or beliefs lead to God( as some people think...1John2:17,änd Matthew 7:21)so not everyone will have the correct understanding of the scriptures.

  I would like to ask her about her statement that "God wouldn't judge people without their knowledge... he is incapable of acting... injustly". So when I am destroyed by Jehovah, is he going to spare the life of my little girl (2 years old)?
• 

  Black Sheep

  That was a typical JW responce ........... not answer your question and ramble on with a whole bunch of stuff to distract you.

  You might have to give her some kind of multi-choice questions to get her to slag off Camping and his followers.

  I notice that your question on 1914 didn't include 'Christ's return'. This was a mistake. They did make predictions for 1914, but not that one. We don't want her slipping the noose.

  The pages she is sending you are from this book. You could pretend you have a copy from the library. Don't tell her you have a download from an apostate website.

  http://www.sendspace.com/file/a38sos

  What you won't find in the pages she is sending is any reference to the Watchtower predicting Christ's return in 1914.

  God wouldn't judge people without their knowledge...

  Have a look through any literature she has given you. Some have pictures of kids getting killed at Armageddon.
• 

  Black Sheep

  Hopefully, she'll send you this year's convention brochure. I reckon there are kids getting killed in the pics of Noah's flood and Armageddon.

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/211239/1/2011-2012-DC-Brochure-s-Listen-to-God-PDF

  Don't specifically ask for it. Oz might not have them yet.

  If a Dub knocks on your door, take everything they have to offer and don't give them any money. If they don't have the brochure this time, they will bring you one when they do have it because you took literature before.
• 

  WontLeave

  I believe the proper way to respond to a friend in Australia is "G'day, mate."

  You think you're frustrated? I'm a JW who doesn't live in my territory, so the JWs who knock on my door don't know I'm a JW. I'm very familiar with JW doctrine and its flaws. I'm very familiar with the history of power grabs and false prophecy. I'm very familiar with the Bible and where JW (and other church) doctrine blatantly violates it.

  I have to play dumb, so I don't obviously "know too much", but I've discovered most JWs who I talk to have no clue what JWs have said in the past, even if they were JWs at the time. They have no idea what the current beliefs are. They have no idea of the true history. They have no idea what the Bible says, other than the "proof texts" of their doctrine (like people in most churches). They're usually entirely irrational, ignorant, and very stupid. They will also lie their asses off.

  I ask them questions, already knowing the answers, in an attempt to draw them out. But their replies never cease to amaze me. The cult mentality flows through JWs as freely as their blood. They claim to love the Bible, but reject things in it that violate their doctrine and become angry if you bring them up. They claim "the truth", but in reality they hate the truth, because they have redefined "truth" as whatever the Watchtower says. They believe anything "of the world" - science, the media, historians, etc. - are tools of Satan and not to be trusted; unless, of course, they find some who agree with their leadership's views.

  I disagree with Black Sheep as far as accepting JW literature. I have discovered that JWs will leave you alone if you agree to talk about the Bible but won't read opinions of men. I had some JWs coming quite regularly for a few weeks, because I would talk to them every time they came for as long as they wanted. But they couldn't count any placements and they can't count it as a study, since they're not using JW literature. I'm hoping they realized their "Bible studies" have precious little to do with the Bible at all, because they all but completely quit coming. Now, I might see them for a few minutes every few months. Since they can't log things on their Watchtower time sheet, they don't feel like they're properly earning their salvation.

  The thing that woke me up that JWs are a cult had nothing to do with the history, because if I was currently held accountable for my past, I'd be screwed. It had nothing to do with "apostates" or "opposers", because most of them are about as nutty as JWs (especially the "born-again" ones). It didn't even have anything to do with me finding things in the Bible that didn't fit current JW beliefs. It was because I wasn't allowed to use the Bible for preaching or Bible studies. It was repeatedly demanded that I push Watchtower literature and doctrine, even if it wasn't in the Bible. When I said I couldn't in good conscience preach extra-Biblical doctrines that were extrapolated from Scripture and wouldn't push man-made magazines I'd personally found several mistakes in, I was repeatedly dragged to the back room. Eventually I was sanctioned, "marked", and just short of disfellowshipped for refusing to preach the Watchtower.

  Mind you, I'd never preached anything contrary to accepted Watchtower doctrine; I simply wouldn't teach false doctrine. I had many Bible studies with intelligent people who asked good questions. I would answer all of their questions with scriptures, whereas every time I saw other JWs answer their studies' questions, it was always with articles. This and people in the congregation arguing against Scripture with magazines is what opened my eyes. The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society isn't interested in the Bible or God. They are obsessed with their own ideas and their own writings, to the exclusion of the Bible. Look at how many languages the New World Translation is available in, then see how many languages the Watchtower is available in. And the Bible doesn't have to be rewritten every 2 weeks.

  The truth is, anyone who is happy in a cult will fight tooth-and-nail against anyone who contradicts their cult. It doesn't matter what evidence you show them, because the vast majority of people are in a religion for emotional - not logical - reasons. The JWs fill a certain emotional desire. The fire-and-brimstone churches fill a certain emotional desire. The holy-rolling, tongue-speaking churches fill a certain emotional desire. The incense, stained glass, and chanting churches fill a certain emotional desire. Then, many people attend a certain church just because their family is in it.

  I haven't found a church that has everything right and since my personal Bible study has revealed to me the falseness of the trinity, immortal soul, Hellfire, etc., I believe the JWs have more correct than most churches. Where they have it all wrong is their worship of the leadership and the group. Their belief that salvation comes through affiliation with them is their undoing and I believe all JWs who adhere to that philosophy will have to answer for it. I believe all churches are just cults of various sizes, since they all promote man-made doctrine above Scripture. They have all been infiltrated by the Devil and no "group" is saved. Individuals will be saved for their faith and endurance "until the end" and false worship of a publishing company is not going to set well with Jesus or his father.
• 

  summerinvincible

  WontLeave - you're right, she's in it for emotional reasons. She told me "If I'm wrong, no harm done", which is actually a pretty crazy thing to say. It means she doesn't care if she's wrong, she's happy to spend her life as a JW just in case she's right.

  I'm not giving up though. I will continue to ask questions, and eventually, I'm gonna have to point out inconsistencies and just plain incorrect teachings.

  She doesn't have to agree with me - she just needs to know that these things exist. And if her kids want to leave one day, I hope they know there is someone here who cares and who will help emotionally, physically, and financially, if they need it.
• 

  ThomasCovenant

  She told me "If I'm wrong, no harm done"

  Unless, of course, she has to bleed to death.

  All because of what seven men, who she can't name, currently say in Brooklyn.

  Thanks for posting and your patience.
• 

  Black Sheep

  She told me "If I'm wrong, no harm done", which is actually a pretty crazy thing to say. It means she doesn't care if she's wrong, she's happy to spend her life as a JW just in case she's right.

  My lot have said things very similar to this.

  I asked my Dad what he would do if he found out the WT had lied to him.

  He said he would leave.

  I showed him from his own literature how the lengths of the reigns of the Neo-Babylonian kings didn't support his church's chronology.

  Did he agree with my evidence? .....yes.

  Did he refute my evidence? .... no

  Did he leave? ............ no.
• 

  Joey Jo-Jo

  before seeking the truth they have to realise they dont have it, once they realise it along comes the decadence into reality. if they think they have the truth I think your wasting your time, its tricky but doable, its hard doing this without raising a red flag, it depends how well you know the person, I know my old folks since yonks and still its very hard, now they shut up when the conversation leads to something against JW's teachings but there have been cracks.
• 

  MrMonroe

  This is a fascinating thread, and it's particularly interesting reading the responses of the JW friends. As is expected, they are simply parroting JW literature without a great deal of thought. I've been guilty of doing the same in the past. As a JW you figure there's no one better at explaining JW doctrine than their own publications, and because JWs turn a blind eyed to contradictions and logical fallacies, they repeat those same statements assuming that those hearing them will similarly accept them.

  I think I may have mentioned this on another thread once: I had a study with the husband of a female JW; he was prepared to give it a go and see if he could be persuaded. We were going through the Live Forever book about Bible chronology. When I explained that "a time, times and half a time" was three and a half times (because it said so on page 140 of the book), he asked, reasonably, why times meant two times, not three or four or 22. All I could so was shrug and say, "Well, it just is, it fits."

  However I agree that the softly, softly approach is best. It may, just may, be possible that a few niggling doubts creep in over time when your friends try to explain why it is that when kooky things are found in other religions it's proof that those religions are false ... but when those same kooky things are found in the history of their religion, it's OK, because it was just the "truth" of the time that was later corrected.

  Few Witnesses are aware of the explicit predictions that have been made in the past by their religion. Heavy pressure was placed on members of the church at that time to accept them, because they were proof that it was God's organisation and proof that the end was sooooo near .... yet those predictions were later dismissed as "false alarms" made with good intent. Today's predictions that the end is sooooooo near are no more reliable than the old, discarded predictions, and they give no more basis to believe that the WTS is God's "organisation" .... or that he even has an organisation.

  Keep chipping away. Be subtle.

  And don't forget, there are many Aussie ex-JWs here. I'm in Melbourne and there'll be others from your area around here as well. All the best!
• 

  summerinvincible

  Thanks again all. She sent me 3 printouts in the mail today -

  1. "Seventy weeks" about Daniel 9:24-27 and 1914 (footer says 'it-2 pp. 899-904' - someone might know which publication this is from)

  2. "Growing in accurate knowledge of the truth" - about the light getting brighter

  3. "Judgment Day" (footer says 'it-2 pp. 136-138')

  She also asked if she had sent me the May Watchtower on "Six Prophecies You Are Seeing Fulfilled Now'. She hasn't, but I shall ask for it :)

  Any ideas on which of these I should tackle next?

  JwFacts suggested that one of the things I ask, is her opinion on the new generation changes. Ask her if she really believes the new "overlapping" generation teaching.

  MrMonroe - I'm in Perth.