Why did Jesus come to Earth as a man?

by StopTheTears 67 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  AGuest

  You do what you feel you need to, dear WontLeave (again, peace to you!)... but please don't ask me questions you don't want serious, TRUTHFUL responses to. I didn't address you and accuse you of be "insane" due to your limited/lack of understanding. You addressed me and asked me to clarify. Which I did. I didn't post scriptures/Bible verses to support what I responded because (1) I've done that SO many times since I've been hear it's almost... well, boring, and (2) I try to assume that those who refer to the Bible as if they know... know... what's IN it, as well as who wrote what and why. Certainly, the many differences between what Christ taught... and what "Paul" taught.

  But again, if you ask ME [to clarify] something, particularly something I've posted... you can be confident that I will. Ask anyone who's been here more than, say, a few months/years. Better yet, everything I've ever posted is still here (save one or two deletions for moderator reasonsings). You are more than welcome to take a looksee - I've nothing to hide.

  Again, peace to you... and sorry for proverbially "rattling" your [apparently Pauline] "cage." You might want to consider letting that go, though... as it has proven a MAJOR hindrance for many... for a couple millenia, now.

  YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

  SA

  P.S. You might also want to consider showing/telling me how sinLESS flesh CAN die (if it is sin that causes death)... or how sinFUL flesh cannot. Christ was "sinless"... yet, he died. That was because his FLESH... was sinFUL (Romans 8:3). Because MARY's was sinFUL. That's who he got his FROM. Adham received HIS flesh from HIS mother, "Hagar"... who had not yet been cursed. So, no sin IN that flesh, originally. But I am open to your explanation...
• 

  tec

  Aguest made some good points that you might want to look at, Won'tleave. Questioning her sanity seems like an excuse to be able to dismiss the points she has made.

  But God raised him from the dead - Acts 2:24

  How do you explain away these:

  John 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." (the temple spoken of was his body)

  John 10:18 "No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

  A spirit has no physical qualities.

  a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have - Luke 24:39

  If a spirit had no physical qualities (such as appearance), then why would Christ have had to explain anything to them to begin with? How did anyone ever know that they were speaking to an angel, such as Mary or Zechariah with Gabriel? I think a spirit can have an appearance without being flesh and blood, as we are.

  Peace,

  Tammy
• 

  designs

  Remember Ecktoplasm in the Watchtower...
• 

  WontLeave

  @tec

  Taking on an appearance and having innate characteristics are different things. The fallen angels who had sex with human woman didn't have human bodies, but they obviously gave themselves fully-functional, anatomically-correct ones. The angel in front of Balaam's donkey was invisible except to who he allowed to see him. It would seem any physical appearance that angel had would have been an illusion.

  My response was to the ascended Christ having white hair, as if the Word, upon returning to Heaven would have literal hair of any color.

  As far as the raising up, both occurrences in John seem to indicate reference to Jesus' physical body. The "temple" specifically meant his body and the "life" he laid down was human. Upon his resurrection, he was glorified in spirit. Perhaps he resurrected his old body (or made a new one, since that one had been dead 3 days) to finish his earthly mission, but he was obviously resurrected by a second party, or else him dying was a hoax.

  For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. - 1Pet 3:18
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  tec

  It would seem any physical appearance that angel had would have been an illusion.

  The bolded part being the key words here. You don't know. You only think based on what you've read, which is what most of us are doing. So why assume that someone who states otherwise is wrong, and you're right, when you have nothing more than that person to draw upon for knowledge... and perhaps even less?

  Perhaps he resurrected his old body (or made a new one, since that one had been dead 3 days) to finish his earthly mission, but he was obviously resurrected by a second party, or else him dying was a hoax.

  Again with the perhaps, so see above. As to the second, it is not that obvious to me. It might seem so, but it might not as well. But since Christ says that I will raise it up (his body), it is not quite so obvious a point, at least not to me. I mean, do you know what having the keys to death and Hades all entails?

  Not trying to argue with you, truly. Just don't understand how you can be quick to dismiss what someone else shares (to the point of deeming them not quite sane) when you, yourself, don't know.

  Peace,

  Tammy
• 

  AGuest

  John 10:18 "No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

  Thank you, dear tec (the greatest of love and peace to you!).

  My response was to the ascended Christ having white hair, as if the Word, upon returning to Heaven would have literal hair of any color.

  Hmmmmm. Interesting, though, isn't it, dear WontLeave (again, peace to you!) that John, the only one to write about having seen my Lord after his ascension... described him as having white hair?

  "Moreover, his head and his hair were white as white wool, as snow..." (Rev. 1:14)

  I realize that perhaps you may have bought into the falsity that the person John saw... and described... was Michael, one of the angels of the Ark (i.e., arkangel). But truly, it wasn't:

  "... and his eyes as a fiery flame; and his feet were like fine copper when glowing in a furnace; and his voice was as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars, and out of his mouth a sharp, long two-edged sword was protruding, and his countenance was as the sun when it shines in its power. And when I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand upon me and said: “Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Ha´des." (Rev. 1:14-18)

  Michael did not die, dear one. Michael is the ANGEL that my Lord gave to Revelation to (which he received from the Father), to present to John. In the account, Michael's voice is "as a trumpet." Which is true: he is the one who announces my Lord's when he appeared then... and will do when he appears before all. He is the angel of the ark with a voice like a trumpet:

  "By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a strong voice like that of a trumpet..." (Rev. 1:10)

  Which was the FIRST voice John heard. My Lord's voice, however, is like the Fathers: "as the sound of many waters." Which is the voice John heard when he turned aroundand saw my Lord standing there, among the lampstands, holding the seven stars in his hand:

  "... his eyes as a fiery flame; and his feet were like fine copper when glowing in a furnace; and his voice was as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars..." (Rev. 1:15)

  John didn't see Michael until after my Lord's admonishments to the seven congregations. Once he concluded, John was transformed into the spirit (inspired; in SPIRIT), and told by Michael, the source of the FIRST voice he heard, to "Come on up here"... so as to have the things he was to see and hear... which were previously hidden from earthling man... revealed (thus, a "revelation"):

  "After these things I saw, and, look! an opened door in heaven, and the first voice that I heard [that] was as of a trumpet, speaking with me, saying: “Come on up here, and I shall show you the things that must take place.” After these things I immediately came to be in [the power of the] spirit:..." (Rev. 4:1, 2)

  And the first thing John SAW when he entered [the spirit realm]... because he saw the door FIRST... was the Father:

  "... and, look! a throne was in its position in heaven, and there is one seated upon the throne. And the one seated is, in appearance, like a jasper stone and a precious red-colored stone, and round about the throne [there is] a rainbow like an emerald in appearance." (Rev. 4:2, 3)

  We know it was the Father because (1) He was seated on the throne, (2) John had already seen Christ and HIS appearance was white head, white hair, orange eyes, and glowing copper feet, etc. And, at the time, HE wasn't sitting but standing... among the lampstands.

  But note, John STILL doesn’t say he’s SEEN the angel that is speaking to him NOW, the one with the voice like a trumpet, who spoke to him FIRST, and now invited him to come into the spirit realm. The angel who was GIVING him the revelation and showing him the things he was to see and hear. Like before, he only HEARD that one until some time well into the presentation. In fact, the only indication of John seeing him… is when he falls down to worship at his feet. (Rev. 19:10; 22:8).

  As for who does the resurrecting, as my Lord is recorded to say:

  “I… am the resurrection…” John 11:25

  He is… based on the authority he received from the Father. Over EVERYTHING… in heaven AND on earth… including death.

  I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!

  YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

  SA

  P.S. His hair is long, as well as white, and like "carded" wool (clean, combed out, reading to be spun into yarn)... and not like a tight-knit afro. All of their hair is like this, including the Father's. Our physical bodies are similar to theirs in FORM (head, arms, eyes, hair, teeth, nostrils, etc.), dear one, but not absolutely not as to substance. And... we don't look like them: we look Adham, whose likeness and "image" AFTER he sinned we bear (Gen. 5:3). Those of us who belong to Christ, however, will receive HIS image. Thus, as Eve was flesh of Adham's flesh and bone of HIS bone... we will be flesh of CHRIST'S flesh... and bone of HIS bone. Most aren't prepared for that, though, because we are smitten with the outward appearance, the physical VESSEL... rather that what's inside, the essence that it holds. Christ is exactly the opposite: his beauty is on the inside, not the outside. Never was.
• 

  WontLeave

  @AGuest

  I won't paste your "evidence" that sinless flesh doesn't die, because it's just you saying it over and over.

  The Most Holy One of Israel didn't "create" the Tree of Life, dear one - that One (the Tree) was born.

  many of the "physical" qualities we have are only in imitation of spirit beings. We have eyes; they have eyes. We have ears; they have ears. And heads, legs, arms, faces, noses... and hair.

  Michael, one of the angels of the Ark (i.e., arkangel)

  I don't say you're insane because you disagree with my personal beliefs. The last one just had me embarrassed for you.

  I hope this helps

  It certainly gives me much insight. I'm sure your heart's in the right place, though.
• 

  AGuest

  I am sorry you feel as you do, dear WontLeave (again, peace to you!). But that is sometimes the case with those who tout the excruciatingly obviously false teachings of the WTBTS. It’s a bit of a marvel that many still do, though, even now, given what's out there to show the falsity.

  That fact that you cannot grasp that flesh... WITHOUT sin in it (i.e., sinLESS)... doesn't die... but only flesh WITH sin in it (i.e., sinFUL)... is... curious. It makes me wonder as to your basic education (e.g., whether you can tell the difference between something that is without/sans something... and thus LESS... versus something that is with/full of something... and thus FUL). Very basic, elementary suffixes, dear one.

  I am a bit embarrassed for YOU, though, that, given all of the information to the contrary, you apparently believe that Michael is the same as Christ. They not only have different voices, dear one, which I shared with you… but… Michael is an angel. Christ, dear one, is a son... and NO angel has ever been called a son by the Most Holy One of Israel. They are servants, not sons (even though MAN might call them sons, which is an error).

  The ONLY other son of God, thus far, was Adam. There WILL be others sons, absolutely, by means of an adoption (through an anointing) by holy spirit... but thus far such ones have only been given a token of that sonship (the anointing); they will not fully BE sons... until they put off the flesh and put on a spirit body, thus becoming FULLY in the image of Christ. Right now, they bear the image… of Adham.

  But I'm not surprised that you are still caught up in the WTBTS trap: it is insidious, as many here can tell you. Not easy for most to readily break loose. That is what cult brainwashing does. I will explain to you, however, who Michael is, so that you can KNOW and not continue putting faith in a WTBTS lie should you so choose:

  Michael is one of the TWO cherubs whose "positions" were to protect the Ark [of the Covenant], its contents, and its cover.

  The ARK... is the "womb" of the "Woman" - Jerusalem Above ("Sarah", who is the "free wife" of the Most Holy One of Israel, with whom He had a Son, Christ). Her womb... is the spirit realm. ALL things came out of the spirit realm. Thus, the phrase "In the beginning" is accurately transliterated as "In the Ark". You might have to look up your ancient Hebrew to see this truth, but it’s there. There is another alternative, though, which I will get to in a minute.

  The CONTENTS of the Ark (the part which is being covered/protected, for not everything in her womb requires protecting)… is the SEED of the Woman…and the COVENANT with God between Him and HER children. That seed is her progeny… and awaits “fertilization” by the “seed” of GOD… His holy spirit. When this occurs, a “new creation” comes to be: a son. This is borne out when anyone receives holy spirit from Christ… who has been given authority to dispense… and so is “conceived” in SPIRIT. This gives such one the potential to be a son, as well. They are not literally sons now, but only technically, by means of the TOKEN of such sonship – an adoption by holy spirit. Once they put on SPIRIT bodies… so as to be in the image of GOD, through being in the image of CHRIST… then they are literally sons. The Covenant is the agreement to PROTECT that seed.

  This adoption, however, has NEVER been held out to any angel, including Michael (an angel).

  The COVER of the Ark… or its “propitiatory”… is Christ. He is the one who “covers” for the seed… and their sins. HE is the “propitiatory” sacrifice FOR that seed… the One who washes away their sins… so that they can ultimately BE sons. He is the PROTECTOR… and thus, the custodian of the Covenant by means of which such seed ARE protected.

  The OTHER cherub… is Belial… the one known to you as “Satan” and “Devil.” BOTH cherubs were supposed to keep their faces toward the cover (Christ); however, ONE… turned his face away. Toward himself. In doing so, he did not “stand fast” ON the Cover (the TRUTH, which Christ is). As a result, HE began to go after the seed… starting with Adham (who was NOT such a seed – his mother is “Hagar”, the physical realm – earth; however, he was the CARRIER of that seed. It was placed IN him… in the spirit essence that was Eve, who came OUT of Adham).

  He, Belial, felt that if he could get to Adham (which he did), he could get to that seed (which he did) to destroy it (by having it destroy itself – another post). Why? Because sonship was not held out to angels. It was held out to mankind… who is weaker, punier, more pitiable, unfaithful, full of hate and disloyalty, disobedient, rebellious, and even blasphemous. Yet, is it mankind that God LOVES… so much that He gave His only-begotten Son (by “Sarah” – His other Son, Adham, had a different mother, a “slave girl”) to SAVE that seed… mankind. Many spirit beings were not only jealous of this… but took issue.

  And so, ONE of the angels of the Ark (Michael)… in order to protect the COVER (Christ)… when he returned to the spirit realm… battled with the OTHER angel of the Ark (Belial)… and cast him OFF the “cover” and thus OUT of the spirit realm (womb). Because that was his (Michael’s) JOB (among others): to keep his face TOWARD the “cover” (toward Christ)… and protect him (who, in turn, protected the contents of the Ark, the seed).

  I do not know these things because I read it in the Bible, dear one, although it is there. I know them because my Lord showed me them… when I asked him. I wanted to know the TRUTH… and rather than just tell me, he showed me. I saw these things with my own eyes, which is how I am able to share them with you.

  You must realize, though, that it makes absolutely NO difference to ME whether you believe them or not. They are the truth. I can only tell you the truth about them… whether you hear… or refrain.

  I hope this helps, truly.

  Again, I bid you peace… and ears to hear… when the Spirit and the Bride say to YOU:

  “Come! Take ‘life’s water’… the “oil of exultation”… which is the holy spirit of God, the Most Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH… of Armies… and is poured out from the innermost parts of His Son and Christ, the Protector of His Covenant with mankind… my Lord, JAHESHUA, the chosen/anointed One of JAH (MischaJAH)…FREE!”

  YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  poopsiecakes

  
• 

  AGuest

  You got jalapenos to go with that popcorn, dear Poopsie (the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!)? If so, pass the box...

  Peace!

  SA, on her own... looking around to see who has the Red Vines (hand 'em over!)...