To the Houshold of God, Israel... and those who go with...

by AGuest 121 Replies latest jw friends

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Greetings, dear Sab (again, peace to you!). I mean absolutely NO disrespect, but you appear to be misunderstanding me as well as contradicting yourself. In addition, there are a couple/few things I must disagree with. You stated:

    There is no need to "accept" that we fall short of that power because it goes without saying.

    When I responded that it SHOULD “go without saying”, you responded:

    You said that they SHOULD know better.

    I really did not say that. I stated that as to your comment that that we fall short "goes without saying." - that some don’t recognize this (that is goes without saying), some don’t even recognize that there IS a power, or although some do recognize that power, they don’t know how they fall short with regard to it. Whether they should know BETTER was, IMHO, another subject altogether. But since you brought it up:

    Why should they? They will either figure it out or they will not given their genetics and circumstance. That's why the Bible talks about the separation of the sheep and the goats, correct?

    Ummmm… I’m not sure. Depends on what you mean by “genetics” and “circumstance.” Can you clarify/elaborate, please? Thank you!

    God does the sorting, in His own due time, based on our actions here.

    Ummmm… not exactly. But since you apparently believe Christ (who does the sorting, along with his co-rulers) to be God (which isn’t the truth, but that is another thread entirely), I will concede, for now, and say yes. But that kind of contradicts what you say further on…

    Using the word "should" implies that these people have what is needed to "know" and are choosing not too for some reason; personal or not.

    Well, but now, that IS true. EVERYONE “has” what is NEEDED to “know.” That they don’t LISTEN to what they "know" really IS a choice. And it really is usually personal.

    With many humans I have witnessed a certain event in their life is what turns the tide within their minds. Until the life cycle is complete there are no "shoulds."

    That is true for those who may have left, but turned around; however, EVERYONE is born with it inherently IN them. “Life” causes them to turn/move away from it. Those you are speaking of have life events that tend to turn them BACK (although, not always to the right “road”). But even little children "know." It our various world societies and cultures... and their expectations... along with the hypocrisy, falsity, and heinous acts of religion... that "learn" it out of them.

    That is why I asked "what's the rush?" Because if one has the tools, and the know how, to build the House and is sitting on the tailgate smokin' dope one needs a fire lit under his ass, right?

    True that…

    Then again, if one is sitting on the tailgate smokin' dope while one waits for material to arrive the responsibility meter drops dramatically.

    Unless one was supposed to get their tail off the tailgate… and go GET the material. Or make arrangement to have it delivered. Right? What your example is suggesting is that one has WHAT ONE NEEDS to build a house... except the actual materials... but expects the materials to simply drop out of the sky. IF one has the tools and know how to build, one logically knows one needs materials to build WITH. So, one would AT LEAST… place an order FOR materials, yes? In which case, one CAN sit and smoke dope while waiting DELIVERY, yes. But if one never placed an ORDER… then one is no different than the one sitting and doing nothing but smoking… while the materials right there under his nose. Right? Either way, no house gets built.

    [Or perhaps you're suggesting that the guy down at the lumber yard somehow miraculously KNEW that your tailgating dope smoker wants to build a house... even though he never got his tail off the tailgate and went to the lumberyard and TOLD anybody there what he planned... heck, didn't even make a phone call... but just sat on his tail[gate] expecting the lumberman to know... and just show up with lumber???????]

    I would like to comment regarding your comments with dear PSacto (peace to you!), as well, if I may. You ask:

    So when it's all said and done and God looks back at how we all interconnected with each other he could never come to the conclusion that someone came to righteousness because of someone else?

    He could not. Because NO ONE comes to righteousness because of someone else, unless that someone else is Christ. One can’t even come to CHRIST because of someone else… unless that someone else is God. And one can’t come to God… unless they go through Christ. The purpose of OUR message isn’t to bring people TO Christ; only the Father does that. It is a proof of OUR faith… as to who and what he IS… and what he can and will DO… for anyone who IS so drawn.

    Two PERFECT examples of that are the Ethiopian eunuch and Cornelius (although there are other examples). In the case of the eunuch, Christ TOLD Philip to join to the chariot. Why? Because the eunuch was ALREADY searching and being drawn. He just didn't understand exactly to WHOM. So, Philip was used to CLARIFY. But PHILIP'S faith was tested because HE was the one given the instruction. Would he do it? Or would he beg off.

    In the case of Cornelius, Cornelius was told by someone other than Peter that his prayers had been heard; yet, Peter was sent. Why? To lead Cornelius to Christ? No! Cornelius already knew about Christ! It was PETER'S faith that was being tested... because he was being sent to a man he previously would have called "unclean"! But NOW... he was being told that what was formerly unclean was now clean! Did he believe it? Would he GO?? Both of these men showed THEIR faith... through THEIR obedience to what they HEARD. If they hadn't gone... someone else would have been sent. But... they would have missed out on the privilege of being used by Christ... because of their disobedience. They were faithful, though... in these least things... and so were given greater tasks: heralding the good news... ABOUT CHRIST... to both Israel and the nations. Whether those heard... or refrained.

    there is a reason why God has allowed so much time to pass.

    Yes. Because He doesn’t WANT… ANY… to die. So, He’s allowing for all of US to make our OWN “reply” to the one taunting Him. Not reply for others, not have others reply for us. But make our OWN reply. And when we CAN'T reply... for whatever reason... there is One who will plead FOR us. Christ. IF we accept him as our leader, which we do by, among other things, obeying his voice.

    We have to choose him, willingly, and that involves helping others understand why choosing him is a good idea, no?

    No. HE has told mankind why choosing Him is a good idea: life. He sent His SON to tell mankind. That Son SPEAKS to mankind. YOU can tell mankind all the day long. I can, too. Won’t change a thing. It is between God, Christ… and that man.

    For an infathomable amount of time humans have been entrapped within the confides of religion.

    On THAT we agree!

    For most of human history God, as he can be, was murdered and replaced with men.

    Not sure what you mean, here? Literally? The Most Holy One of Israel cannot be murdered, dear one. Nor can He die. True, He has been replaced with men, and so the REALITY of Him has been “murdered.” But I don’t understand what you’re saying, especially since you say “For most of human history.” Again, can you clarify/elaborate, please? And, again, thank you!

    No king rules forever

    Ahhhh, here we MUST disagree. No HUMAN king rules forever, dear one; however, God, as the MOST High, and Christ, as His appointed King… rule… forever.

    and we are finally breaking those rusty bonds, wouldn't you agree? God doesn't detatch those, we do.

    Again, I must disagree. We can release others from OUR bonds… those WE have on them (primarily, our judging!)... and we are directed to DO that. However, it is Christ who sets us free. For if the SON sets you free… you are TRULY free. All other freedom is merely an illusion.

    Again, I mean no disrespect… and bid you peace!

    YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

    SA

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    The moment we say that "this person came to Christ because of ME", we are being prideful, ie: sinful.

    What about something like this?

    "I know that what I do is helping others come to God because I know the power of the message I possess and further. I have the joy of knowing that, when it's all said and done, I helped. I could die today and know that I helped even if no one ever told me. It's important for me to understand how easy it is to show someone God's message of love and how easy it is for them to accept it. Not everyone gets to be Moses or King David, but that doesn't minimize the acts of God's children not written down.

    We have a tendency to exhalt the ones that produce more, but what of the every day individual? Are they to constantly look upward, not only to the sky, but to the Chosen Ones as well? All power on earth lies within the individual, ultimately; we are the work horse; I wear that badge with pride and, as God would have, it we can see, and be happy for, the fruitage of our labor."

    -Sab

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    I really did not say that. I stated that as to your comment that that we fall short "goes without saying." - that some don’t recognize this (that is goes without saying), some don’t even recognize that there IS a power, or although some do recognize that power, they don’t know how they fall short with regard to it. Whether they should know BETTER was, IMHO, another subject altogether. But since you brought it up:

    I brought it up because I think it is extremely pertinent.

    -Sab

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    Unless one was supposed to get their tail off the tailgate… and go GET the material. Or make arrangement to have it delivered. Right? What your example is suggesting is that one has WHAT ONE NEEDS to build a house... except the actual materials... but expects the materials to simply drop out of the sky. IF one has the tools and know how to build, one logically knows one needs materials to build WITH. So, one would AT LEAST… place an order FOR materials, yes? In which case, one CAN sit and smoke dope while waiting DELIVERY, yes. But if one never placed an ORDER… then one is no different than the one sitting and doing nothing but smoking… while the materials right there under his nose. Right? Either way, no house gets built.

    God has a timeline, obviously, since we are still here mulling about the planet on our own. Youl would agree that there is SOMETHING we are waiting for and that is what I meant by "the materials." There are things that we simply cannot "go get" because of whatever mystical reasonings. They must drop in our lap just as the materials are dropped on the jobsite. They were details taken care off already before we got here.

    -Sab

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    Well, but now, that IS true. EVERYONE “has” what is NEEDED to “know.” That they don’t LISTEN to what they "know" really IS a choice. And it really is usually personal.

    We have the potential at all times, but the scanarios where the choice takes place is extremely variable. When a life ends that turned to righteousness you would be able to point out what was needed for that person to do it and it requires circumstance especially involving others.

    -Sab

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    He could not. Because NO ONE comes to righteousness because of someone else, unless that someone else is Christ. One can’t even come to CHRIST because of someone else… unless that someone else is God. And one can’t come to God… unless they go through Christ. The purpose of OUR message isn’t to bring people TO Christ; only the Father does that. It is a proof of OUR faith… as to who and what he IS… and what he can and will DO… for anyone who IS so drawn.

    What a rigid way to look at things.

    Without God we are nothing (literally), very simple and I understand that. So, really, all glory goes to God in all things. Can we move on? At one point I would like my son to stop graveling at my feet and hanging on my every word. I'd like him to be himself! In fact that's my goal as a father. Where did I get that goal? Is it wrong for me to want him to be an individual? Is it wrong for me to want him to be emotionally autonomous? I think we could agree, no.

    So what of the relationship I have with my eternal father? Does he want me to apologize for "taking too much credit"? I am an imporant cog and just because there are vastly more complicated and more effeicient cogs doesn't mean I can't do a damn good job within my own framework.

    Where is the pride of being human? Hear me roar! I think God allows for it.

    -Sab

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    Yes. Because He doesn’t WANT… ANY… to die. So, He’s allowing for all of US to make our OWN “reply” to the one taunting Him. Not reply for others, not have others reply for us. But make our OWN reply. And when we CAN'T reply... for whatever reason... there is One who will plead FOR us. Christ. IF we accept him as our leader, which we do by, among other things, obeying his voice.

    By your logic humanity will continue until we go extinct because only then would all data have been collected and a conclusion could be made.

    -Sab

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    Not sure what you mean, here? Literally? The Most Holy One of Israel cannot be murdered, dear one. Nor can He die. True, He has been replaced with men, and so the REALITY of Him has been “murdered.” But I don’t understand what you’re saying, especially since you say “For most of human history.” Again, can you clarify/elaborate, please? And, again, thank you!

    God, as history exposes, will let us wallow in our own filth until we get ourselves out of it. It's very parental when you think about it. We have to learn on our own mistakes it's the only way we can continue to the next step. God has his hand in things, maybe to keep us from ending it all, but only as much as a loving father would intervene.

    He has allowed men to "murder" him. God is within the individual and always has. It was the individuals that allowed themselves to be enslaved. They could have stood up, I suppose, but they gave up. I don't blame them I probably couldn't handle the torture as well, but they broke us nonetheless.

    We're coming back though, as we speak even. I think God is with more people today now than ever. The fruitage of the world empire of Greed is apparent and the future looks bleak. More and more people will turn to love as the World Light dims because we will all know that in the end, love is the only hope. The ones in the concentration camps that abandoned love and it's subsequent hope swiftly lost their minds and their lives.

    -Sab

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    Ahhhh, here we MUST disagree. No HUMAN king rules forever, dear one; however, God, as the MOST High, and Christ, as His appointed King… rule… forever.

    A king is a human linguistic title. God is not a king he is God. The word works well for him, I admit, but to use it's definition as a point of argument in regards to the nature of God is moot, imo.

    -Sab

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Greetings again, dear Sab, and again, may you have peace!

    With the exception of the following, I must refrain from comment at this time as to your recent comments mainly because our understanding and perceptions are so different. They require great “philosophical” discussion which would, IMHO, take several pages… and away from the topics at hand, which I posted for others. So, I don’t want to get into such on this particular thread, if that’s okay with you. Perhaps on another thread… or even another time… should you desire? I can, however, respond as follows:

    They must drop in our lap just as the materials are dropped on the jobsite. They were details taken care off already before we got here

    Except that the “details” are the materials, dear one… already measured and cut… and sitting in the lumberyard. Even so… we STILL have to place an order… DO something… to at least show the lumberman we WANT to build a house. The lumberman retains the discretion whether to FILL the order and deliver the materials (which are free), true. But that’s because the lumber and delivery ARE free. Given that, since it’s his lumber and “truck”… the decision as to whether to take/fill the order is His. But no need to even MAKE a decision about that… is there… if no ORDER has even been placed.

    By your logic humanity will continue until we go extinct because only then would all data have been collected and a conclusion could be made.

    No, because the days WILL be cut short. Because, if allowed to go on perpetually, we’d all lose. Even those who belong to Christ. Sooner or later mankind would run out of hope… and so would those who belong to Christ in the promise he made them. ALL would turn away. Everyone. In order to fulfill the promise made to those who belong to Christ, however, there will be a cut off point. Some would say man has already lost hope, that there is no forthcoming fulfillment. Not all believe that, however. I don’t. Based on what I know personally. Others don't either because, as you said, folks are still trying to turn back. So…

    Anyway, that’s probably it, for now, at least on these matters.

    Again, I bid you peace!

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

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