The "patibulum" : a fragile theory !

by TheFrench 112 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    No, Mark is the first gospel that the church adopted as canon. A trove of Gnostic writings which contain most of the same narrative and sayings of Jesus but are markedly different were discovered during the first Arab-Israeli war. A guns smuggler's son entered a cave to hide weapons and stumbled upon a very famous treasure trove, preserved in jars. The desert climate preserved them. They view the created world as bad, the work of an errant, lesser god, the demiurge. The spirit is trapped in the body and wants to be free to join the true God. Physciality is bad. Jesus is a spirit apparition in these gospels. He does not teach the masses. Rather, he imparts secret knowledge only understood through a person's gnosis. It is a religion of the few and well-educated.

    The Gnostics are so different yet the narrative and sayins match the sayins of Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John. Mark is the first we know about. The discovery of the scrolls at Nag Hammadi illuminated early Christianity as extremely diverse. The main church used many gospels. Mark, Matthrew, Luke, and John had a wide, international audience. Local gospels were also used. It was mish mash with no universal knowledge. Over time, Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John gained legitimacy. Hundreds of years later the Bible was canonized. Made official. Representatives from the major churches gathered and debated.

    They clearly saw the differences in the Gospels. Jesus' trial is markedly different in emphasis.. It is clear the writers are slanting events to reach their target audiences. If I recall correctly, Mark addressed Jews as Jews. Matthrew addressed Jewish Christians, Luke addressed Greek Christians, and John, much later, decided to write pure theology. The elements emphasized in the different trial accounts show how each group sought comfort. Luke goes out of his way to Imperial Rome to prove Christians are no threat. I've been interested in Jesus' behavior during the trial for decade. A Google scholar search will retrieve thousands of scholarly articles on the trial accounts.

    The Church Father, minus any Mothers, decided that the four gospels, although inconsistent ins ome details, provdied a fuller truth than one, amalgated gospel combing the accounts. It was not clear that four gospels would emerge as canon. The council decreed that the canon was closed for all time. In effect, it said that Jesus or the Holy Spirit is no longer active through revelation of sacred scripture. A bad idea. I am certain that the nature of Christ was also hotly debated as a backdrop. So I see the gosepls as a political decision. No Bible magically appeared from the heavens with specail lighting and choirs of angels singing. The debates were recorded in part.

    The human action in making the Bible is the obvious part. Other books could have been chosen. In fact, I am certain that during canonization and afterwards, local churches still used their favored texts. ONe problem I see is as time progresses, fewer and fewer writers mention other books. I don't think any of the evangelists had special magic dust. I view the socioeconomic cultural climate as shaping the church's acceptance of them. Something in these gospels attracted people through out the known world.

    Paul wrote the earliest. If folly of the cross is cross, I am completely convinced. He stresses the importance of the cross. The mere word "cross" means more than a literal cross. Already, the cross is equated with Jesus death, resurrection, ascension and return.

    Does it truly matter, though?

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    We don't know for SURE if Christ carried the patibulum or the full cross ( though it is almost 100% that he did indeed get crucified on a T shaped cross).

    But, there are somethings that we do "know", we know that, typically, the condemed carried the patibulm, we know that, typically, the vertical stake that the patibulum was nailed to was already at the site. We do know that the sheer weight of a FULL cross would have been far to heavy for any man to carry at all, much less Christ in his condition ( the patibulm alone probably weighted close to 100lbs, depending on the thickness of wood used).

    The Cross is, as Paul stated, a symbol of victory and something to be proud off.

    The JW's, as usual, have it wrong.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    The Latin Fathers of the Church has NEVER described Jesus carrying a "patibulum".

    The earliest extant Latin father is Tertullian and he used the term patibulum three times with reference to Jesus (Ad Nationes 1.12, Adversus Marcionem 4.42.5, 4.42.7). He wrote that if Marcion were correct and Jesus was only a spirit being "nothing remained on the timber (nihil remansit in ligno), after he gave up his spirit nothing was hanging there, nothing was begged for from Pilate, nothing was taken down from the patibulum (nihil de patibulo detractum), nothing was wrapped in linen, nothing was laid in a new sepulchre" (Adversus Marcionem 4.42.7). Elsewhere he was specific that although a cross did not have to include a patibulum to be considered a cross, Christians recognized the form including a patibulum as specifically the cross of Christ: "Any piece of wood planted upright in the ground is part of a cross and indeed the larger part of a cross. But we Christians are credited with an entire cross complete with a transverse beam and a projecting seat (tota crux imputatur, cum antemna scilicet sua et cum illo sedilis excessu)" (Ad Nationes 1.12). He did not describe Jesus's carrying of the cross, but he did use the word patibulum with reference to it, and he certainly pictured a cross with a transverse beam (antemna, the transverse beam in the mast of a ship being another term for it).

    Another ante-Nicene Latin father was Lactantius who similarly used the word patibulum in describing Jesus' crucifixion: "Thus his unbroken body was taken down from the patibulum (sic integrum corpus patibulo detractum), and carefully enclosed in a tomb....Since he who is suspended upon a patibulum (qui patibulo suspenditur) is both conspicuous to all and higher than others, the cross was especially chosen (crux potius electa est), which might signify that he would be so conspicuous and so raised on high " (Divinae Institutiones 4.26).

    As for the claim that no Latin father ever described Jesus as carrying the patibulum, this is simply false. Ambrose for instance gave a sermon comparing the crucifixion to Abraham's binding of Isaac, and stated: "Isaac carried the wood to him [his father], Christ himself bore the patibulum of the cross (ligna Isaac sibi vexit, Christus sibi patibulum portavit crucis)" (De Abraham 1.8).

    So from the earliest extant Latin father onward, the term was applied to the apparatus on which Jesus was executed.

    Indeed, the early Christians to represent Jesus carrying the "crux", not the "patibulum". It's a fact.

    If we're talking still about the Latin fathers, the earliest Latin father Tertullian used the term patibulum in reference to Jesus' cross even if he did not describe the carrying of the cross per se. The Greek fathers are earlier, but of course the word patibulum would not have been used since that is a Latin word, not Greek. Instead the Greeks simply used the word stauros to refer to the cross in whole, or in part. This thus was the term used to refer to the carrying of the cross to the execution site (Chariton, Chaereas and Callirhoe 4.2.6-7, Plutarch, De Sera Numinus Vindicta 554A, Mark 15:31, Matthew 10:38, 16:24, 27:32, Luke 23:26, Artemidorus Daldianus, Oneirocritica 2.56), even in the case of two-beamed crosses (as is in the case of Artemidorus, who specifically described the shape of the stauros as like the mast of a ship). The Greek fathers consistently described Jesus' stauros as two-beamed or T-shaped, from anonymous homily traditionally assigned to Barnabas in the apostolic fathers (Barnabas 9:7-8, 12:1-5), to Justin Martyr (1 Apology 35, 55, 60, Dialogue 90-91). Justin Martyr, for instance, described how the stauros is put together with two pieces of wood, an upright and a transverse beam (Dialogue 91), he compared the shape of the stauros with a ship's mast (1 Apology 55), and yet he used this same word to refer to what Jesus carried: "...the cross which when crucified he took upon his shoulders (tou staurou hò prosethèke tous òmous stauròtheis)" (1 Apology 35).

    For example, before the Vulgate, Tertullian quotes the Gospels. Each time he reported the invitation of Jesus to carry the "stauros", it translates "stauros" with "crux", not "patibulum".

    Well that's obviously because crux was the term that generally translated Greek stauros (when it referred to an apparatus for execution) across the board. Patibulum was in comparison a much rarer, specialized term.

    Even more surprising, when Tertullian describes the cross, he uses the Latin word "antenna", not "patibulum".

    As I showed above, he used both terms. The term antemna draws on a metaphorical comparison between the cross and the mast of a ship, the same comparison found earlier in Ardemidorus and Justin Martyr.

    You should say the first descriptions (stauros->cross) were dated second century, not before. It's a fact. Yet Jesus died in the early first century.

    The first explicit descriptions in Greek date to the second century, but that doesn't mean that was when the crux compacta came into use. We know from Latin sources that the patibulum had been used in crucifixion long before then. That's a fact too.

    But, there is no proof. So, not possibility.

    Lack of proof does not equal impossibility.

    Yes, several Greek and Latin authors tell this story but none of them explicitly mentions the crucifixion or the cross. Yet it is precisely on the basis of this story that many believe that the crucifixion (with a cross) was performed in the first century. So, it's unfounded.

    That story did not concern crucifixion. It concerned a pre-Republican method of slave humiliation that was likely ancestral to the later Roman practice of crucifixion. Rather we know that the patibulum was used in crucifixion in the first century AD and before because writers said so: "Let him carry his patibulum throughout the city and then let him be fastened to the crux (Plautus, Carbonaria, fr. 2; written in the third century BC), "They are tied to patibula and led around, and nailed to the crux" (Clodius Licinus, Historia, fr. 3; written in the first century BC), "If he wants [him] to bring the patibulum to the crux, the contractor will have to provide wooden posts, chains, and cords for the floggers and the floggers themselves" (Lex Puteoli Inscription, II.8-9; first century BC), "Yonder I see cruces, not indeed of a single kind but differently contrived by different peoples: some hang their victims upside down, some impale their private parts, others stretch out their arms on a patibulum" (Seneca, De Consolatione, 20.3; written in the first century AD), "Though they strive to release themselves from their cruces, those cruces to which each one of you nails himself with his own hand ... did not some of them spit upon spectators from their own patibulum?" (Seneca, De Vita Beata, 19.3; written in the first century AD), "You may nail me up and set my seat upon the piercing crux. Is it worthwhile to weigh down upon one's own wound and hang impaled on a patibulum that one may but postpone something which is the balm of troubles, the end of punishment?" (Seneca, Epistula 101.10-14; written in the first century AD), etc.

  • TheFrench
    TheFrench

    But, there are somethings that we do "know", we know that, typically, the condemed carried the patibulm, we know that, typically, the vertical stake that the patibulum was nailed to was already at the site. We do know that the sheer weight of a FULL cross would have been far to heavy for any man to carry at all, much less Christ in his condition ( the patibulm alone probably weighted close to 100lbs, depending on the thickness of wood used).

    Sorry, but it's wrong ! Otherwise, prove me what you are saying. Latin text does not explicitly link the punishment of "patibulum" or "furca" (which moreover does not necessarily lead to death) and the crucifixion.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    Latin text does not explicitly link the punishment of "patibulum" or "furca" (which moreover does not necessarily lead to death) and the crucifixion.

    How are the two not "explicitly linked"?

    Patibulum ferat per urbem, deinde adfigatur cruci.

    Deligata ad patibulos, deligantur et circumferuntur, cruci defiguntur.

    In crucem patibul[um] agere volet redempt[or] asser[es] vincul[a] restes verberatorib[us].

    Video istic cruces non unius quidem generis sed aliter ab aliis fabricatas: capite quidam conversos in terram suspendere, alii per obscena stipitem egerunt, alii brachia patibulo explicuerunt.

    hi, qui in se ipsi animum advertunt, quot cupiditatibus tot crucibus distrahuntur. At maledici et in alienam contumeliam venusti sunt. Crederem illis hoc vacare, nisi quidam ex patibulo suo spectatores conspuerent.

    Suffigas licet et acutam sessuro crucem subdas est tanti vulnus suum premere et patibulo pendere districtum.

    Nam quoniam is qui patibulo suspenditur, et conspicuus est omnibus et ceteris altior, crux potius electa est.

    Tener, quia non dura cervice, sed molli iugum legis agnovit, crucis patibulum non recusavit.

    Adfixam patibulo crucis carnem proprii violaturus esset auctoris.

    Adfigentes quoque patibulo crucis quemcumque offenderant.

  • Chariklo
    Chariklo
    The human action in making the Bible is the obvious part. Other books could have been chosen. In fact, I am certain that during canonization and afterwards, local churches still used their favored texts.

    There was a very interesting programme on BBC TV perhaps a year ago that said exactly that, and illustrated it not only with an overview of some of the Gnostic texts and the history of their finding, but also a study of the very early Church in different parts of the Middle East and north Africa, as I remember. It clearly showed the rivalry between different areas and different bishops, and stated explicitly that bishops chose which texts they'd use in their area.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Years ago I poured over Biblical texts as a reaction to the Witnesses. I've certainly changed. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

    Every NT translation I know translates Paul's folly of the cross as a cross. It may not be literally true but it is symbolically true. I'm certain that the Triune cross had pagan meaning. The Church used it to teach the Trinity. When I was a witness, Paul's writings would make me nauseated. The mysgony was so great. Nothing byt prohibitions and petty lecturing. I was assigned Paul's recognized letters as primary reading. My Dudley Doright nature could not compel to read them. I relied upon secondary materials. I found that he never wrote the passages I detested the most. Paul's letters are more important than the gospels for me b/c he teaches the theology and consequences of the cross. Paul does not view Jesus as a social gospel prophet. His letters contain the earliest creeds of the church.

    He defined the church. I should say his influence and the Roman destruction of Jerusalem. I don't know if we would even have Christianity today without Paul. For all their contradictions, Mark, Matthew and Luke agree on so much that I believe earlier traditions existed. I was taught about Q as a document but from what I've read it is no longer accepted. Their audiences are too diverse to have only one document. Perhaps there is no document but a rather strict oral tradition. I don't know if the Gnostics had access to the canonical gospels. Maybe the early ones did not. Too many stories and sayings are the same. Homer was able to relate details of the Iliad and the Odyssey and his followers did also. I want written documents but there is nothing about writing, scribing that makes it more accurate than an oral tradition.

    I find that people here share my NT fanatiscism. I don't believe in it literally at all. Still, I read scholarly articles and books with keen interest. Maybe I'm preparing for the rational battle of all battles iwth Bethel. As I said before, the WT gathers faux authenitcity by delving into details. Some times they are even correct. So I assumed they were correct about ridiculous matters. Once you accept their authority to interpret the scriptures for you, you are doomed. My family did not know the credentials of Rutherford,Franz or Russell at first. It was blind faith. I view it as peasant think. They had no self confidence in their own abilities. When you work in coal mines before unions, you are not going to question the owners.

    The dominant thing that separate me from my Witness family was that I questioned. It struck me as strange that this little obscure religion had truth to its own baliwick. Everytime we question the NT here and read other's views it is like a vampire being fought off successfully. This is the act that makes us apostastes. Oh, blessed apostates.

  • ProdigalSon
    ProdigalSon

    The cross is an ancient sacred symbol throughout many cultures representing the union of male and female. Jehovah was originally a male-female god. So they must remove the crossbeam just as they remove the feminine aspect of Jehovah. What's a cross without the crossbeam? A phallus. What's Jehovah without his wife? A DICK.

    Why then should we be surprised at how the elders treat the flock? They're just a reflection of their mysogenist narcissist god!

  • TheFrench
    TheFrench

    The earliest extant Latin father is Tertullian and he used the term patibulum three times with reference to Jesus (Ad Nationes 1.12, Adversus Marcionem 4.42.5, 4.42.7). He wrote that if Marcion were correct and Jesus was only a spirit being "nothing remained on the timber (nihil remansit in ligno), after he gave up his spirit nothing was hanging there, nothing was begged for from Pilate, nothing was taken down from the patibulum (nihil de patibulo detractum), nothing was wrapped in linen, nothing was laid in a new sepulchre" (Adversus Marcionem 4.42.7). Elsewhere he was specific that although a cross did not have to include a patibulum to be considered a cross, Christians recognized the form including a patibulum as specifically the cross of Christ: "Any piece of wood planted upright in the ground is part of a cross and indeed the larger part of a cross. But we Christians are credited with an entire cross complete with a transverse beam and a projecting seat (tota crux imputatur, cum antemna scilicet sua et cum illo sedilis excessu)" (Ad Nationes 1.12). He did not describe Jesus's carrying of the cross, but he did use the word patibulum with reference to it, and he certainly pictured a cross with a transverse beam (antemna, the transverse beam in the mast of a ship being another term for it).

    Of course, but in this case, Tertullian can use "patibulum" in the sense of "crux". You prove yourself, when Tertullian refers to the crossbeam, unambiguous, the author uses the Latin word "antenna", not "patibulum". The problem is there. None of the first Latin texts does not refer to the crossbeam by "patibulum". But with "crux", always, at least until the fifth century (where you have a single reference!).

    Another ante-Nicene Latin father was Lactantius who similarly used the word patibulum in describing Jesus' crucifixion: "Thus his unbroken body was taken down from the patibulum (sic integrum corpus patibulo detractum), and carefully enclosed in a tomb....Since he who is suspended upon a patibulum (qui patibulo suspenditur) is both conspicuous to all and higher than others, the cross was especially chosen (crux potius electa est), which might signify that he would be so conspicuous and so raised on high " (Divinae Institutiones 4.26).

    In this text, it is likely that "patibulo" is used in the sense of "crux". "His unbroken body" can be rendered by "his whole body." Indeed, it is from the cross, not just the crossbeam, that his "whole" (integrum) body was detached.

    As for the claim that no Latin father ever described Jesus as carrying the patibulum, this is simply false. Ambrose for instance gave a sermon comparing the crucifixion to Abraham's binding of Isaac, and stated: "Isaac carried the wood to him [his father], Christ himself bore the patibulum of the cross (ligna Isaac sibi vexit, Christus sibi patibulum portavit crucis)" (De Abraham 1.8).

    You finally managed to find a text, one text, which dates from the IV-V century. It's light. Indeed, do ambrose he employs "patibulum" in the sense of "crux"? B ecause at that time, we have representations (sarcophagi, etc.) of Jesus carrying a complete cross, not the "patibulum". Therefore, for me, no doubt that IV-V century, all Christians (including Ambrose) believed that Jesus carried a cross, not just the crossbeam.

    If we're talking still about the Latin fathers, the earliest Latin father Tertullian used the term patibulum in reference to Jesus' cross even if he did not describe the carrying of the cross per se. The Greek fathers are earlier, but of course the word patibulum would not have been used since that is a Latin word, not Greek. Instead the Greeks simply used the word stauros to refer to the cross in whole, or in part. This thus was the term used to refer to the carrying of the cross to the execution site (Chariton, Chaereas and Callirhoe 4.2.6-7, Plutarch, De Sera Numinus Vindicta 554A, Mark 15:31, Matthew 10:38, 16:24, 27:32, Luke 23:26, Artemidorus Daldianus, Oneirocritica 2.56), even in the case of two-beamed crosses (as is in the case of Artemidorus, who specifically described the shape of the stauros as like the mast of a ship). The Greek fathers consistently described Jesus' stauros as two-beamed or T-shaped, from anonymous homily traditionally assigned to Barnabas in the apostolic fathers (Barnabas 9:7-8, 12:1-5), to Justin Martyr (1 Apology 35, 55, 60, Dialogue 90-91). Justin Martyr, for instance, described how the stauros is put together with two pieces of wood, an upright and a transverse beam (Dialogue 91), he compared the shape of the stauros with a ship's mast (1 Apology 55), and yet he used this same word to refer to what Jesus carried: "...the cross which when crucified he took upon his shoulders (tou staurou hò prosethèke tous òmous stauròtheis)" (1 Apology 35).

    No need to give these texts as a reference. they are imprecise. Moreover, when the authors speak about carrying stauros as Artemidorus, we do not know if they refer to a cross or a pole, for these instruments, both alike, were used in the crucifixion (broadly defined), I remind you...

    Well that's obviously because crux was the term that generally translated Greek stauros (when it referred to an apparatus for execution) across the board. Patibulum was in comparison a much rarer, specialized term.

    Easy. So why the first representations of the Passion depicts Jesus carrying a cross, not a crossbar?

    As I showed above, he used both terms. The term antemna draws on a metaphorical comparison between the cross and the mast of a ship, the same comparison found earlier in Ardemidorus and Justin Martyr.

    Not only. "Antenna" is not always used in a metaphor. For Tertullian, it seems to have been a technical term for the horizontal beam of the cross. : Every piece of timber fixed in Which is ground in the erect position year IS a part of a cross, and the Greater Indeed portion of mass STI. Entire year goal IS Attributed to cross us, icts with transverse beam (antemna), of course, and Its Projecting seat. - Tertullian, Ad Nations, I, 12.

    That story did not concern crucifixion. It concerned a pre-Republican method of slave humiliation that was likely ancestral to the later Roman practice of crucifixion. Rather we know that the patibulum was used in crucifixion in the first century AD and before because writers said so: "Let him carry his patibulum throughout the city and then let him be fastened to the crux (Plautus, Carbonaria, fr. 2; written in the third century BC),

    Plautus uses "patibulum" and "furca" interchangeably and texts show that this punishment does not necessarily lead to death. In his book, The Lives of the Twelve Caesars, Suetonius described the punishment and he does not speak of the crucifixion (Nero, 49)! In addition, Plautus describes the punishment that looks exactly like the punishment you call "a method of pre-Republican slave humiliation". In fact, it's the punischment mentioned by Suetonius because the "patibulum" is the same piece of wood that the "furca". In this passage of Plautus, where is the link between "patibulum" and the "crux"? Could it be they two separate punishments, a combination of different punishments as this can be done at the time?

    "They are tied to patibula and led around, and nailed to the crux" (Clodius Licinus, Historia, fr. 3; written in the first century BC),

    Idem

    "If he wants [him] to bring the patibulum to the crux, the contractor will have to provide wooden posts, chains, and cords for the floggers and the floggers themselves" (Lex Puteoli Inscription, II.8-9; first century BC),

    But in this entire text, the "patibulum" may be carried by the workers (more workers!). Why the "patibulum" is provided by several workers? The patibulum is so heavy?

    And I'd like to know if there is a new translation. Then, a re you sure that the sentence translates as "If wants [him] the patibulum to the crux" ? What says the original text ?

    "Yonder I see cruces, not indeed of a single kind but differently contrived by different peoples: some hang their victims upside down, some impale their private parts, others stretch out their arms on a patibulum" (Seneca, De Consolatione, 20.3; written in the first century AD),

    Sometimes, Seneca uses " stipes ", " crux " and " patibulum " interchangeably . In this text , it can use " patibulum " in the sense of " stipes ", as he does it elsewhere . " stretch out t heir arms " : Of course, we can 'extend his arms' on a cross (horizontally) but you can too do it on a pole (vertically). This passage is not explicit.

    "Though they strive to release themselves from their cruces, those cruces to which each one of you nails himself with his own hand ... did not some of them spit upon spectators from their own patibulum?" (Seneca, De Vita Beata, 19.3; written in the first century AD),

    In this context, Seneca uses "crux" and "stipes" (precisely "stipitibus") interchangeably. Therefore, Seneca thinks a stake, not a cross.

    "You may nail me up and set my seat upon the piercing crux. Is it worthwhile to weigh down upon one's own wound and hang impaled on a patibulum that one may but postpone something which is the balm of troubles, the end of punishment?" (Seneca, Epistula 101.10-14; written in the first century AD), etc.

    Precisely, in the context, Seneca speaks about " acutam crucem " which is in fact the " crux simplex ", the stake in english . This is explained in The Catholic Encyclopedia: "Certain it is, at any rate, that the cross originally consisted of a simple vertical pole, sharpened at its upper end. Mæcenas (Seneca, Epist. xvii, 1, 10) calls it acuta crux; it could also be called crux simplex."

    How are the two not "explicitly linked"?

    In the texts of Plautus, for instance, the few times ( very rare : twice, I think ) where " patibulum " and " crux " are in the same text, there is no evidence (h ence my " explicitly") that this " patibulum " is the crossbar which is placed on a pole ! Same for the other Latin texts. If not, prove me wrong, I expect that. Really...

  • Knowsnothing
    Knowsnothing

    1.) I will enjoy the coming onslaught.

    2.) I don't care about the specifics of cross or stake. There can be no 100%. On what specific instrument he died is inconsequential.

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