The NWT itself disagrees with the Watchtower theory that Jesus died on an upright stake. John 20:25 states: "Unless I see in his hands the print of the NAILS..." Plural. Only if hands are outstretched can it states NAILS. One hand on the other hand above the head would equal one nail.
The "patibulum" : a fragile theory !
by TheFrench 112 Replies latest watchtower bible
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TheFrench
Is there evidence for this?
Yes, just for the problem of weight...
The NWT itself disagrees with the Watchtower theory that Jesus died on an upright stake. John 20:25 states: "Unless I see in his hands the print of the NAILS..." Plural. Only if hands are outstretched can it states NAILS. One hand on the other hand above the head would equal one nail.
It's a false problem. The representations of WT are not intended to be accurate : "Thus, it just is not possible at this point to state with certainty how many nails were used. Any drawings of Jesus on the stake should be understood as artists' productions that offer merely a representation based on the limited facts that we have." - w84 4/1 p. 31
Moreover, several nails could be used in the hands of Jesus, as shown by a representation of Fulda (however the position of the nails in this picture, nails in his hands precisely, is unlikely accordind to Pierre Barbet, rather it was done in the wrists).
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TD
Yes, just for the problem of weight...
Really?
I agree that an upright stake 6 inches in diameter by 11 feet would weigh less than 100 pounds, provided it came from a softwood tree and had been dried to about 20% nominal moisture content.
But an annoying problem in engineering is the cube law. Internal mass increase at a sharp vector relative to the external dimensions. (e.g. A cube 40mm x 40mm x 40mm weighs 16 times as much as a cube 20mm x 20mm x 20mm --Mass cubes when dimensions double.)
If we were to increase the radius of this proposed stake by only 1 inch, its internal mass (And therefore its weight) would increase by 78%.
So I am curious if the proposed dimensions of the stake have real historical support or if the JW are (again) simply making every favorable assumption possible
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TD
This statement should have read:
"A cube 40mm x 40mm x 40mm weighs 8 times as much as a cube 20mm x 20mm x 20mm --Mass cubes when dimensions double"
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Band on the Run
One thing has puzzled me. I visited the Vatican and eagerly visited the early Chrisitan catacombs. The early symbols of the church were the fish and the lamb. Was a cross present? I don't recall crosses as I would expect in the catacombs. Has anyone studied this? Wikipedia might have an article.
The symbols the earliest church used to describe themselves or Christ would reveal what themes were the most important to them.
A cross is the easiest to draw. Maybe I will return with some art history.
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Band on the Run
Wikipedia said crosses were not used for the first several centuries. Fish, Good Shepherd and Chi Roe mark the early years. The editors suggest that crucificion was so ignoble an end that the church did not press it.
Whatever he carried, would it not be a cross for the actual crucifixion. I used to laugh at the Witnesses. Even with a stake, you have about 19/20 of a full cross. I don't care about an extra half foot.
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Chariklo
I was interested to discover recently that Darius, King of Persia, used crucifixion, more than 500 years before Jesus was born. That a cross was used is clear, and it's widely attested to.
http://thecrucifixions.blogspot.com/2007/02/darius-of-persia.html
http://www.britannica.com/facts/5/29549/Darius-I-as-discussed-in-crucifixion-capital-punishment
http://www.joezias.com/CrucifixionAntiquity.htmlhttp://ancienthistory.about.com/od/crucifixion/g/crucifixion.htm
"Definition: The Persians, Seleucids, Carthaginians, and Romans all used crucifixion as a method of execution. In crucifixion, the condemned was affixed to two crossed wooden beams, one of which was stuck in the ground. The arms were either nailed or tied to the crossbeam about 9-12 feet above ground. Death was sometimes quickened by breaking the legs. Jesus was killed using crucifixion, but he was hardly the only victim of it. The 6000 captured at the end of the revolt of Spartacus were all crucified by the Romans along the Appian Way, and in 519 B.C. Darius of Persia crucified 3000 political opponents. The Carthaginians sometimes crucified their own unsuccessful generals."Finally, I'm interested in geology. When we got to the point in the Bible Teach book, I objected strongly to the so-called "proofs" that a stake was used and that stauros did not mean cross, because immediately I connected the word with staurolite. I had always been taught that staurolite was named after stauros because the crystals form at right-angles to each other, forming a cross. Not a stake!
http://geology.about.com/od/minerals/ig/silicates/minpicstaurolite.htm
There's a nice picture of staurolite on that page. It leaves no room for doubt!
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Band on the Run
I was interested in the earliest figurative represenations of early Christian art so I visited wikipedia. As I recall from a visit to Rome, Good Shepherd, fish and Chi Roe predominated. The cross did not become dominant until later. Editors suggested that the cross was so repulsive to potential believers, it was downplayed in the early years.
Yet Paul exalts the cross. It is curious. The cross is so central to today's Christians. Good Shepherd, Fish, and Chi Roe seem like side shows.
Does anyone have any ideas? I'm assuming wikipedia is correct. It seems that their art would reflect their belief. What does the early show Christ carrying?
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Kenneson
The French,
Red herring! I am not speaking of the Watchtower's representations in its literature. I'm talking about translation. Is it nails or is it not?
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TheFrench
Does anyone have any ideas? I'm assuming wikipedia is correct. It seems that their art would reflect their belief. What does the early show Christ carrying?
Judge for yourself :
- Sarcophagus of Domatilla (from Catacomb of Domatilla), mid-4th century
- Panel from an ivory casket: Christ carrying the Cross, Late Roman, AD 420-30
- Basilica of Sant'Apollinare Nuovo, 6th century
Where is the patibulum ?
