The "patibulum" : a fragile theory !

by TheFrench 112 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    Sorry, but it's wrong ! Otherwise, prove me what you are saying. Latin text does not explicitly link the punishment of "patibulum" or "furca" (which moreover does not necessarily lead to death) and the crucifixion.

    Couldn't care less about the inconclusive Latin text or the greek text for that matter.

    Read my post again:

    But, there are somethings that we do "know", we know that, typically, the condemed carried the patibulm, we know that, typically, the vertical stake that the patibulum was nailed to was already at the site. We do know that the sheer weight of a FULL cross would have been far to heavy for any man to carry at all, much less Christ in his condition ( the patibulm alone probably weighted close to 100lbs, depending on the thickness of wood used).

    We know that by typical accounts of curcifixtions ( there is no reason to beleive Christ's was any different), we also know that the sheer weight and size of a complete cross would have been vitrually impossible for a health Male to carry, much less one that was almost dead from being flogged.

    I posted the calcs of how much a full cross woudl have weighted for it to be planted and hold the size of a average male ( 65" in those days).

    a 6 x 6 runs you about 8lbs per foot, so just the vertical stake, which needed to go in about 3 ft to be secure, would be about 10 ft = 80lbs

    Add to that the cross beam and you have another 5 ft, so - 40lbs for an average of 120lbs of solid wood.

    That is really heavy.

    And conservative.

    Since the re-used the cross beam, it probably was 6ft, but even keeping the 5, carrying around 40lbs of lumber is pretty hard for the average person and makes more sense.

    The Romans being as efficient as they were, typically, had the condemend carry the cross beam and had the vertical stake waiting for him.

  • Lore
    Lore

    There's something I never ever could understand. . . why would ANYONE carry their own cross/pole?

    I'd refuse to carry it. What are they gonna do? Torture me?

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Lore,

    Yes, they'd tie it to you and drag your sorry ass ( pardon the expression) and probably make sure you last even LONGER on the cross.

  • TheFrench
    TheFrench

    We know that by typical accounts of curcifixtions ( there is no reason to beleive Christ's was any different),

    What "accounts" ?

    we also know that the sheer weight and size of a complete cross would have been vitrually impossible for a health Male to carry, much less one that was almost dead from being flogged.

    Yet, the first christian representations depict Jésus carrying a entire cross, not a "patibulum" and in them texts, Fathers too (probably) because they uses "crux", not "patibulum", when they speak to carrying stauros. As WT says : "Tradition, not the Scriptures, also says that the condemned man carried only the crossbeam of the cross, called the patibulum, or antenna, instead of both parts. In this way some try to avoid the predicament of having too much weight for one man to drag or carry to Golgotha." (it-1 1190-1192).

    I posted the calcs of how much a full cross woudl have weighted for it to be planted and hold the size of a average male ( 65" in those days).

    a 6 x 6 runs you about 8lbs per foot, so just the vertical stake, which needed to go in about 3 ft to be secure, would be about 10 ft = 80lbs

    Add to that the cross beam and you have another 5 ft, so - 40lbs for an average of 120lbs of solid wood.

    That is really heavy.

    And conservative.

    Since the re-used the cross beam, it probably was 6ft, but even keeping the 5, carrying around 40lbs of lumber is pretty hard for the average person and makes more sense.

    WT says : "The matter of one man like Simon of Cyrene bearing a torture stake, as the Scriptures say, is perfectly reasonable, for if it was 15 cm (6 in.) in diameter and 3.5 m (11 ft) long, it probably weighed little more than 45 kg (100 lb).—Mr 15:21." - (it-1 1190-1192).

    The Romans being as efficient as they were, typically, had the condemend carry the cross beam and had the vertical stake waiting for him.

    This argument is slight. An idea isn't historic because it's brilliant...

  • jgnat
  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Does this little detail really matter at all? He was crufified, executed as a criminal. The agony can't be imagined. Frankly, though, I"ve lived with agonizing pain. If he still had his powers to heal, transform matter, why did he not jump down, not consciously, but as a body reflex. Those people who jumped out of the WTC to avoid the flames and explosions did not think about suicide long. Was it even suicide? I don't think so by normal standards. And Jesus was taunted to rescue himself. If I view Jesus as God, I can see his not acting. If he were man and not aware of messianic callings, why not? Sometimes it doesn't do to think about it too much.

    The issue of whether he knew he was the messiah is more important that a full or partial cross. His resurrection inflinitely more so.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    The only reason it matters because of the seeming fastidiousness of the WTBTS. They make it sound that their research is inspired and bible-based, and the very thought of a cross, pagan. Misrepresentation and sloppy scholarship.

    Not only that, but an active Witness shudders at the thought of entering a place of worship where the cross is displayed. Very effective aversion device.

  • Knowsnothing
    Knowsnothing

    Here is some great info. done by Leolaia about 6 years ago.

    In this text, it is likely that "patibulo" is used in the sense of "crux". "His unbroken body" can be rendered by "his whole body." Indeed, it is from the cross, not just the crossbeam, that his "whole" (integrum) body was detached.

    So, why use 2 different words? You're not making much sense.

  • TheFrench
    TheFrench

    "What accounts"?

    Check out these accounts: http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/jesus/the-facts-on-crucifixion-stauros-and-the-torture-stake.html

    it's useless to refer to a endless study. It's more interesting to examine here one text after one text.

    Does this little detail really matter at all?

    "little detail" ? Not for many people as Leolaia, apparently.

    The only reason it matters because of the seeming fastidiousness of the WTBTS. They make it sound that their research is inspired and bible-based, and the very thought of a cross, pagan. Misrepresentation and sloppy scholarship.

    Not only that, but an active Witness shudders at the thought of entering a place of worship where the cross is displayed. Very effective aversion device.

    Well, are you finish your banal critics ?

  • TD
    TD
    ....if it was 15 cm (6 in.) in diameter and 3.5 m (11 ft) long...

    Is there evidence for this?

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