I had a discussion with my JW friend during which I asked her why a rational person should believe the world is run by demons. In response, she questioned the existence of objective rationality. She said that we should "agree to disagree." She said that she "deduced" that the world must be run by demons. I said, "Really? You deduced that? Can you please provide your deductive reasoning?" She said everyone has their own definition of what "deduce" means. I said, "No. People define things like deductive reasoning, and it is one way we communicate with each other." She said, "I will not let you intimidate me! I will not be forced to think according to your rules!" I think she is out of her mind, and I want nothing more to do with her. Also, she often uses her own definitions of English words, actually Watchtower definitions, but she neglects to tell people what she really means by them and allows people to think she means the usual English definitions. I am finding this behavior repulsive and don't even want to be around a person who does it. Am I overreacting? I don't know how to relate to someone who refuses to communicate in English and abide by logic. As I am realizing that she is speaking a different language, I am thinking even an everyday conversation is impossible with her because she is speaking Watchtower English, and I am not. Any comments? I know JW's shun people, but what do you think about shunning them back because of their maddening communication style?
Considering Shunning my JW Friend
by InterestedOne 28 Replies latest jw friends
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Essan
That's a totally understandable reaction and you are not obliged to have to do with anyone who causes you so much irritation, obviously.
But try to remember she is in a cult and has been heavily conditioned and manipulated. Try to have compassion for that. If you can keep your cool you may be able to help her over time. She is literally not in her right mind, but most of us here were like that at one time too.
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ABibleStudent
Hi InterestedOne, I am sorry about what you are going through with your friend. I have been through similiar experiences with my Former Friend, who is a devout JW. She has a similiar mind set to your friend. I would suggest reading Steve Hassan's books like "Combatting Cult Mind Control" to understand (and possibly cope with) how your friend behaves. I do not know your situation, but once your friend believes that she cannot convert you she will probably consider you a bad association and stop seeing you, so there is no need to shun her. She will start shunning you.
Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,
ABibleStudent
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NewChapter
As long as her heart is in the KH, it will be this way. She honestly has no inclination to see it your way and believes she has the answers. In her eyes, the deficiency is yours. But do you care about this person? Would you miss her? Are you just overwhelmingly irritated at the moment but will soften up in a bit? I got very irritated with someone using cult speak today, and I regret being harsh. Just give it some time, you may feel differently soon. It's frustrating, especially in the moment, but it often passes. If it causes more grief to hang on to her as a friend, you can make that decision when you don't feel provoked.
NC
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Rocky_Girl
Don't shun her. Just don't choose to hang out with her anymore. People move in and out of friendships all the time and when they see each other on accident they simply make small talk and move on. Not everything has to be a dramatic event. I would not choose to hang out or converse seriously with someone who cannot think for themselves. But, I see no need to be mean to her unless she won't leave you alone.
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DesirousOfChange
Considering Shunning my JW Friend
Don't shun her because she's a witness.
Shun her because she's FREAKING NUTS!
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talesin
She said, "I will not let you intimidate me! I will not be forced to think according to your rules!"
This sounds like a fear-based statement .... maybe you are making her think,,, and she is afraid. We all know what happens if we start to doubt,,, then maybe we might lose everything. Just something to think about. As her friend, you would know better than me.
ABibleStudent had a really good suggestion.
As per the shunning --- it's a horrible thing, and I only shun the ones who do it to ME.
She is your friend. As trying as that may be at times for you, why would you be so cruel to her?
Sometimes friendships end, and if you want to end it, then you could end it in a normal way. But shunning? EW!
And no, I don't think you're overreacting - your gut is telling you you're uncomfortable, and it's always right.
Hard choices -- good luck with it.
tal
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InterestedOne
In our overall relationship, what happened was that I put the cart before the horse. I started helping her out with her business as a "favor for a friend," thinking we were developing a friendship being fooled by her charming demeanor, not knowing about the JW thing and how she views me and the rest of the world. Now I am involved in her business basically "doing her a favor" for next to nothing. After our last conversation where it became clear that she is speaking another language, and my general study of the JW worldview, I am feeling as though I do not want to consider her a friend. She wants the benefits of a friendship, but turns around and refuses to communicate on any objective basis. Neither of us is equipped to handle the philosophical questions of epistemology, etc., but she conveniently goes by whatever rules make her and her worldview "right." If they fit with logic, then she is right. If they don't fit with logic, she will simply abandon logic. She is right no matter what.
I really thought we were developing a friendship because she has a way of making it seem like she is your friend. However, she will throw in some JW stuff that makes you do a double take. I took the bait responded to some of it and found out what she really thinks. Now, when I think of her or see her, I feel repulsed and nauseated. It's almost like I was inadvertently becoming friends with someone from Westboro Baptist or something. Then I find out what this person thinks of me and the rest of the world and am totally freaked out.
We are in the middle of a project at her business, and since our conversation a few days ago, I just come in and do what I have to do, only speaking to her when necessary, as I imagine JW's would do when they work with someone they are shunning. Once the project reaches a stopping point, I am considering telling her I want nothing more to do with her business or her. Talesin, when you say end a friendship in a "normal" way, would you say my telling her that I want nothing more to do with her would be a "normal" way to end it? I've had friendships sort of fade away, but I've never had occasion to tell someone I want nothing more to do with them. It's quite a radical thing to say, but I feel as though she is working the grey area and manipulating social norms just like she is manipulating language. From what I have learned about JW's, I think this kind of manipulation goes back to their early development with people like Rutherford, and I am thinking I should put a stop to it in my little sphere of influence.
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Retrovirus
InterestedOne, I can relate because I saw my ex-SIL go this way. When we met, before she became my SIL, she seemed a stong, independent lady with a nice sense of humour. We became friends as well as relatives. Before her marriage she was "studying the Bible" ( ) with the jw and soon after she was baptised.
It made for an impossible marriage. My brother could and did compromise, but a jw cannot. Also my friendship with her eroded as she only seemed interested in converting me. Finally she set the local jws onto me. With the current Apostate Angst, she has stopped communicating entirely.
This "friend" of yours does as she thinks she must. She cannot leave the religion out of it because she must "give a fine witness" but she must also panic at every logical response, as it threatens her cult personality.
It seems that you will have to part ways, but if you can, do it gently. She is trapped and cannot be reasonable, but she can still feel hurt.
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InterestedOne
Retrovirus - The fact that she can still feel hurt is what led me to post and ask for comments. I don't want to be a jerk. I don't want to hurt her. I may simply say that I don't know how we can possibly communicate, and so I would like to "part ways" as you phrased it. I think that is a good way to put it.