Theology

by sabastious 136 Replies latest jw friends

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  PSacramento

  An observation not unique to my own is that many Christians dismiss the immorality of the OT by pointing out that the Law has been superceded and one must look to the NT for guidance on morality. But it seems that the long arm of the OT repeatedly reaches forward into the NT to remind us what God really wants. In Acts 12:21-23 Harrod is struck down by an angel and eaten by worms because he didn't praise God. In Acts 5:1-10 a property owner sold his land and delivered most of the cash to the Apostles, but because he kept some of it for himself he and his wife were struck down and killed. In Luke 9:59-62 a man whose father has just died wishes to bury him first before following Christ but is told to let the dead take care of themselves and ordered to go out and prosthelytise, another man who wishes to say goodbye to his family is similarly instructed. In Luke 14:26 Jesus tells his followers to hate their families and their own lives if they wish to follow him. In Matthew 10:34-36 Jesus proclaims that he has come not to bring peace but to turn family members against one another. In Luke 18:29-30 Jesus promises eternal reward for those who leave their wives and children to follow him. In Ephesians 5:22-24, Colossians 3:18, 1 Peter 3:1, 1 Corinthians 11:3 and 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 we see the mysogeny of the NT, where women are commanded to be in subjection to their husbands and in 1 Timothy 2:9 they are instructed how they may dress themselves. Mark 7:9–13 and Matthew 15:4–7 reach back into the OT to rehash the admonition that children who do not honour their parents should be put to death. Same goes for Matthew 5:18–19, Luke 16:17, 2 Timothy 3:16, and John 7:19 in which the currency of the old Law is not dismissed but affirmed. And we don't even have to get into the glorious destruction of billions depicted in Revelation.

  It's an appropriate question and observation ina theological hread.

  Here is an interesting read:

  Is God a Moral Monster?: Making Sense of the Old Testament God by Paul Copan ( Paperback - Jan 1, 2011) I made a thread about this and, well, no one read it, LMAO !! You make a few points but I think tha majority of them have been adressed in other threads ( Paul's mysogeny is nothing of the sort since he praises women on several occasion, Romans for one) and the issue of 1 and 2 Timothy have also been addressed a few times. But the matter is, truly, how MUCH of the OT's horrifc acts and laws attributed to God WERE of God?
• 

  godrulz

  Sab: God judged the immorality of Israel and godless nations in the OT harshly. The Law was there and the Lawgiver enforced it. We are not under theocratic Israel now, so grace is an even higher standard.

  Wobble: Textual criticism ensures that the original language MSS we have for translation are 99% reflective of the originals with no significant minor variant affecting any doctrine and practice. Don't underestimate the sovereignty and providence of God.
• 

  sabastious

  Sab: God judged the immorality of Israel and godless nations in the OT harshly. The Law was there and the Lawgiver enforced it. We are not under theocratic Israel now, so grace is an even higher standard.

  No divine law was ever enforced because most of the OT stories have been altered or fabricated completely. Let go of that ball and chain, godrulz, those stories, as anything more than fiction, has been a blight on this planet and it's inhabitants. The Old Testament's SOLE modern purpose is to provide context for the Gospels and the Jesus story.

  If you read the Gospels carefully you will see that Jesus rebuked the Old Testament. Yes, he did utilize the OT for his own purposes when it was called upon him much like the great americans of old utilized the Bible for their politcal campaigns even though not believing a word of it. It's quite obvious that Jesus hated the Pharisaical ways of his contemporay religion: the fusing of a culture with a single book. It is also obvious that he would be able to ascertain the origins of the bad behaviour. Much like today it was the Sacred Texts that empowered religious corruption because it licenced them to do really anything they wanted so as long as they passed it through the Sacred Text Testing system they made for themselves and stamped God's seal upon it.

  You remind me SO much of the Pharisee's of Jesus day godrulz.

  -Sab
• 

  PSacramento

  The issues with the OT is many and theologians have deabted them for centuries and will continue to do so.

  Did Christ make changes/improvements to the OT laws? Yes.

  Did Christ state that soem OT laws were man made? Yes, case in point the divorce one.

  Did Jeremiah ( and Christ) accuse the scribes of misleading the people? Yes.

  Is the Bible the word of God, unaltered and without any error?

  That is THE question isn't it?
• 

  sabastious

  PSac, do you question any of Jesus alleged words in the Gospels?

  -Sab
• 

  PSacramento

  PSac, do you question any of Jesus alleged words in the Gospels?

  -Sab

  Yes.

  I question everything that is written in the OT and NT, as a Christian AND as a amateur theologian ( if I can even call myself that, LOL).
• 

  godrulz

  Jesus did not rebuke the OT, considered it the Word of God, quoted it with authority, and lived as a Jew. What He did do was rebuke the false interpretations/applications of the religious Pharisees who distorted its true teachings/intent by adding, twisting, etc. (cf. JWs).
• 

  PSacramento

  Jesus did not rebuke the OT, considered it the Word of God, quoted it with authority, and lived as a Jew. What He did do was rebuke the false interpretations/applications of the religious Pharisees who distorted its true teachings/intent by adding, twisting, etc. (cf. JWs).

  He rebuked the divorce laws, he rebuked the dietary restrictions, he rebuked stoning for sinning, had made it clear, liek Jeremiah did, that the scribes took liberties with the WRITTEN word of God.

  He quoted from it, of course, why wouldn't he?

  He also made it clear that the rules and laws were not only of God but of men ( Moses ) and made it clear that he had authority over it.

  He also made it clear that the Holy Spirit came, that the would need no man to teach them, that the HS would guide them ( and us) in our understanding.

  He didn' say it would be perfect, LOL ! but he did say that it would be the way, why?

  Because it was personal, not via MAN, but via US AND the HS, it falls on US now, not to be taught by others, but to find our own understanding WITH the HS and as such, NOW the responsibility is OURS and no one elses.

  In short, no more excuses.
• 

  sabastious

  Jesus did not rebuke the OT, considered it the Word of God, quoted it with authority, and lived as a Jew. What He did do was rebuke the false interpretations/applications of the religious Pharisees who distorted its true teachings/intent by adding, twisting, etc. (cf. JWs).

  Jesus had a clear agenda and it involved getting rid of the corrupt past. He chucked most of the Old Testament, as did his successors, even though giving it lip service. You mustn't read the Bible as the spoken word of God because it's not, at least in the way you think it is.

  Jesus had contempt for the Old Testament, but there is just no way to prove that using his words recorded in the Bible. Most ideas of Christ are contradicted by his alleged words because his message is simpler than most want it to be; not to mention they have been changed in an unknown fashion over time. People, like you, are always trying to categorize everything into rigid trains of thought and walks of life and call it "the only way". Shame on you! Any ideaology that treats the OT as a historcal record is a direct disservice to Jesus, the revolutionary, and what he died for.

  -Sab
• 

  sabastious

  Yes. I question everything that is written in the OT and NT, as a Christian AND as a amateur theologian ( if I can even call myself that, LOL).

  Right on!

  -Sab