JW Women Self-0Loathing - Get a Back Bone

by Band on the Run 98 Replies latest jw friends

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    An earlier thread about pants suits for women led me on this tangent. Women make up the majorty of Witnesses. They cannot be suppressed without their acquiescene. What could the GB do if every female JW showed up in a pantsuit on the same day.

    The women are so eager to be walked over and spit on. Seeing my mom as doormat caused problems for me. I discussed this with my grandmother decades ago. We are smarter than the brothers. Not the same. Smarter. We know our WT better. JW men are low-earners. They aren't men's men. Jw women will kill each other over the JW male crumbs.

    I believe women would have a different take on blood, children, and disfellowshipping. My gm was a feminist by temperament. She agreed with my points completely but said the brothers are the brothers.

    How do women become so malleable to serve as door mats? What can be done to fix the situation? My present being would scare the living daylights out of male authroities. Christ saw that we were created with tenderness and a strong maternal instinct. If we listen to men too much, we are abrogating our created duty to protect children and maintain homes.

  • exwhyzee
    exwhyzee

    The title of this thread should be Men Bad....Women Good

    What could the GB do if every female JW showed up in a pantsuit on the same day.

    Since you asked...what would happen if the men showed up to the meeting without a jacket and tie ? Their wives would be mortified and they would be viewed as immature and unambitious..not reaching out for priviliges.

    Who do men get to blame for having to put a suit and tie on just to go and sit in some book study for an hour ? Nobody but themselves....certainly couldn't blame the JW women even if that's exactly what they expect from JW men.

    JW men are low-earners. They aren't men's men. Jw women will kill each other over the JW male crumbs.

    Way to make broad generalizations about all JW men. I've never been a low earner nor have most of the Brother's I've known. They were actually pretty resourceful considering the limitations that were put on them by being JW's. And what exactly are Men's Men...what does that actually mean?

    Women are so eager to be walked over and spit on

    Being asked to wear a dress or skirt to meeting when men are required to wear a hot uncomfortable suit and tie is hardly being walked over and spit on.

    We are smarter than the brothers....we know our WT better....My present beng woud scare the living daylights out of male authorities

    She said with all the venom she could muster......Scare the living daylights out of male authorities!! Geeze what happened to you??

  • meangirl
    meangirl

    Amen Band on the Run. I know exactly what you are saying and agree 100%. What exwhyzee does not understand it that it is more than women being forced to wear skirts all of the time-it is the fact that coupled with constantly being told you are "weaker" and that you are to be a "helper" and that you are to be "submissive". Tie that with enforcing some stupid outdated dress code and it takes away women's dignity. In the witness religion women are not viewed as equal and keeping sisters in dresses/skirts enforces the sex differences so we can tell "who wears the pants" in the stupid JW religion. It caters to male egos big time. Show me one time where the society came outright and said "Men and women are equal" or how about this in articles where it is refering to women replace it with "spanish people" or "black people" and tell me if it is not prejudice. I too do not understand why JW women put up with this crap. Your right, they need to grow a backbone. I too always intimidated JW men. They just didn't get me. My husband and I always joked that he would be made an elder if I just quit being so vocal, wore only floral print dresses/skirts with no shape and showed up at the hall with a blackeye and walked 10 steps behind him that he would so be made an elder. Well, screw that.

  • exwhyzee
    exwhyzee

    It's no picnic being groomed and expected from boyhood to be the leader...to be an example...to stand alone on the stage...have all the answers...conduct the meetings...be the strong one ...the protector....the decisoin maker...the bread winner etc especially when all of those things are the last thing you want to be. Many a Man would love nothing more that to throw it all aside sit back and criticize with the ladies while someone else takes the drivers seat.

    Lets face it....no one gets out of this religion or even life without being crammed into some kind of mold or forced to be someone other than their natural authentic selves. A lot of women want men to be strong , ambitious, high wage earners and leaders and yet often resent men for the influence and power they gain by being thrust into those roles.

    P.S. Men were created with tenderness and parental instincts as well. Women haven't corned the market on all that is good in the human race. Although we adore them individually on the whole there is a tendency for some women to blame men for their problems and for men not to come to their own defense when needed.

  • TheSilence
    TheSilence

    Wow, there's a lot of bitterness and generalities in this thread. I was raised a witness. I knew from a very young age that I wasn't the kind of girl who would be the 'submissive helpmate'. I am the dominant party in my relationships and I prefer men who enjoy being in a submissive role with me so the witness concept of relationships was never going to be my cup of tea. But being the dominant party doesn't make me smarter or better or more important. Aren't you being exactly the same as the men you malign when you say, "We are smarter than the brothers. Not the same. Smarter. We know our WT better. JW men are low-earners. They aren't men's men." Isn't that the same as saying, "We are stronger and smarter than the sisters. Not the same. Better. We are the ones Jehovah gave headship to. Women should be homemakers and nothing more. A woman with a spine is not a woman's woman." Aren't you perpetuating the same exact thing just on the other end of the spectrum?

    I can be dominant in my relationships and still love, honor, and respect the man I love and men in general. I don't need to belittle any man or group of men to prove myself in this regard. I am simply who I am and if others don't accept that they have no place in my life even though I wish them well in theirs. I see no reason to paint the entire male population of the witnesses with the brush you have used.

    "How do women become so malleable to serve as door mats?"

    They allow themselves to be. It is their choice. They have the same ability to get up and walk away as you or I did. If that is the life they choose then leave them to it. There are more women more comfortable in submissive roles than there are comfortable with dominant roles. And, believe it or not, there are more men comfortable with submissive roles than there are comfortable with dominant roles. How about we just respect the choices others make in their lives, even if that choice is to "become so malleable to serve as door mats." Some people are happy in their submissive roles even if you don't understand it.

    "What can be done to fix the situation?"

    You have already fixed your situation and that is the only situation you are in charge of fixing.

    "My present being would scare the living daylights out of male authroities."

    That is not as impressive as you seem to think it is.

  • Scully
    Scully

    BOTR:

    The women are so eager to be walked over and spit on. Seeing my mom as doormat caused problems for me. I discussed this with my grandmother decades ago. We are smarter than the brothers. Not the same. Smarter. We know our WT better. JW men are low-earners. They aren't men's men. Jw women will kill each other over the JW male crumbs.

    I believe women would have a different take on blood, children, and disfellowshipping. My gm was a feminist by temperament. She agreed with my points completely but said the brothers are the brothers.

    How do women become so malleable to serve as door mats? What can be done to fix the situation? My present being would scare the living daylights out of male authroities. Christ saw that we were created with tenderness and a strong maternal instinct. If we listen to men too much, we are abrogating our created duty to protect children and maintain homes.

    Part of the problem is the deeply entrenched belief that the bible (specifically the epistles attributed to Paul where gender issues are concerned) is the inerrant, infallible word of god. So the WTS capitalizes on the individual's desire to "do god's will" in the hopes of procuring blessings for so doing. The same is true with the way women are regarded - "the weaker vessel" "to be kept safe by childbearing" "should be submissive" and "render the marital due" to her husband in order to "keep the marriage bed without defilement", while at the same time "not being a busybody" or being concerned with "braiding of the hair", and should be careful to keep "her head covered" lest she be shorn. She should also "remain silent" and should not wear the garments of a man so as not to bring reproach on her father or husband.

    The misogyny in the bible is stunning. The WTS (as well as other fundamentalist belief systems) take advantage of any natural tendencies a woman has to nurturing and serving others and pigeon-holes females into roles of servitude and martyr-like subservience. The attitudes have been pervasive for centuries - from the caveman bopping a female over the head with a club and carrying her off as his mate, to the male dominated professions like physicians, lawyers, accountants, business moguls, etc.

    I've brought this up with regard to the blood transfusion issue several times before: clotting factors to treat haemophilia were the first ever blood fractions to be permitted for use by JWs. It just so happens that haemophilia is a clotting disorder that affects males almost exclusively. However, if you are a JW female, and you become pregnant, your risk for death as a result of the pregnancy or childbirth is over 60% greater than for non-JWs. A pregnancy-related medical emergency (such as postpartum haemorrhage or DIC - disseminated intravascular coagulation) can require several units of blood in order to save a woman's life, yet the WTS offers NOTHING to its female members - whom they consider to be "weaker vessels" - that will allow them to partake of life-saving treatments that will give them a chance to raise the child they have brought into the world. I've said this before too: If it were men whose lives were at risk from postpartum haemorrhage and DIC, rather than the lives of women, the WTS would change the policy on blood transfusion in a heartbeat. It's abundantly clear the disdain the WTS has for women and children by its continued ban on blood transfusions that would save JW women from dying in childbirth.

    Aside from boycotting the WTS financially, I think a revolt by female JWs would scare the living $h!t out of the leadership of the WTS, and probably result in its demise entirely.

  • meangirl
    meangirl

    Well said Scully I find it rather ironic that women's rights are so belittled. @ The Silence so your saying that since Bandontherun left and stood up for herself that solves the problem and we should be okay with women being subserviant and submissive. Well would you say the same for black people standing up for their rights. If I was black and complaining about prejudice would you say so you removed yourself from your dominant white work place, problem solved. Now quit your bitching. Women must stay united if they are going to continue to make advancement. Women are not given rights in the JW religion and you know that as well as anyone. That is a fact and it should disturb you not only as a women but just as a human. Just because I myself have not been a victim of female circumcision does not mean I don't care and will not be proactive to help victims. Just because I have never gone without food does not mean I will turn my back on a starving person. Quit justifying the mistreatment of women in your mind as okay and somehow women are okay with that. YOU ARE WRONG. It is just as wrong as any other social prejudice and nobody should be okay with it or put up with it. It should be just as distrubing as racial prejudice.

  • Intel
    Intel
    It's no picnic being groomed and expected from boyhood to be the leader...to be an example...to stand alone on the stage...have all the answers...conduct the meetings...be the strong one ...the protector....the decisoin maker...the bread winner etc especially when all of those things are the last thing you want to be. Many a Man would love nothing more that to throw it all aside sit back and criticize with the ladies while someone else takes the drivers seat.
    Lets face it....no one gets out of this religion or even life without being crammed into some kind of mold or forced to be someone other than their natural authentic selves. A lot of women want men to be strong , ambitious, high wage earners and leaders and yet often resent men for the influence and power they gain by being thrust into those roles.
    P.S. Men were created with tenderness and parental instincts as well. Women haven't corned the market on all that is good in the human race. Although we adore them individually on the whole there is a tendency for some women to blame men for their problems and for men not to come to their own defense when needed.

    Excellent post exwhyzee!!! I wholeheartedly support your comments, since they where exactly how I felt.

    My father left "the TrUtH" when I was 15 and I constantly got a slap on the back by elders telling me, in front of my mother, that now I have to be a "good boy" and become the "spiritual guide" for the family and set an example......it was too much weight for a teenager that was confused and barely knew where left and right is. Later on it was my wife. Constant "privilege seeking"-modus really weighted down on my health and persona.

    She went sour on me the day I walked to the Branch Committee and gave up my Bethelite Status, Bethel Elder and all the other "shiny theocratic medals"......THAT day marked the beginning of the end of our relationship!

    Yes, my friend you are certainly talking out of experience: It's no picnic...

  • meangirl
    meangirl

    On second thought Bandontherun I don't agree with this:

    "Christ saw that we were created with tenderness and a strong maternal instinct. If we listen to men too much, we are abrogating our created duty to protect children and maintain homes."

    or this:

    "We are smarter than the brothers. Not the same. Smarter. We know our WT better. JW men are low-earners. They aren't men's men. "

    I can understand your point but best not to stereotype anyone. We are all individuals. We all don't fit in little boxes.

  • trailerfitter
    trailerfitter

    Why do women allow themselves to be treated the way they do?.. quote of Timothy 2;11 is the first that comes to mind...From a religious context and the effect it had on society for 1000s of years,.... blame the people who wrote the bible and what they ultimately thought of women. Men are terrified of loosing control and the base evolutionary reason for male dominating thier spouse / partner is protection of family and passing "his" genes on. The same is reflected in other species in nature however this is specific to evolution and survival. In reality the female will choose the best mate for mating.

    There are no goddesses in the Judeo/Christian religions only an all powerful MALE figure to be worshipped without question. No women or female forces to worship unlike the Polytheistic cultures that came before the one god idea...All that was destroyed or oppressed.

    Women have never had it so good in this society and it is because they have struggled to get at least equal status. This is not the responsibilty of the churches but rather humanity divorcing itself from Christian beliefs.

    Historically we have only really started to progress in humanity with human rights, equality and free thinking in the last 10 decades, thats 100 years or so...... that is not many generations compared to how long the scriptures have been enforced. Modern churches just want to retard the advancement of humanity by using worn out and poorly applied dogma that has hindered rather than helped. Again Timothy 2:11 explains what women should do... I find Ironic,...... women teach males when they are at their most vulnerable, from birth they are taught the most basics.

    The Christian / Jewish and Muslim churches have kept women in thier place for 1000s of years and before that they we still treated not equally. I find it obserd that my wife who is a newbie at the Kingdom Hall is quite prepared to accept that she is lower than a man (although in practice she is still as arrogant as her mother). and I find it quite sickening that her firends tell me they are making my wife into a "better wife". There was nothing wrong with her in the first place I didn't ask for it or even allow it. I married my wife for her unique qualities which are now being erroded and supressed. We had an equal power base in our house, she makes decisions and so do I on different area of our lives.

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