JW Women Self-0Loathing - Get a Back Bone

by Band on the Run 98 Replies latest jw friends

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  meangirl

  Okay so stating facts is somehow "blaming".......hhhhhhhmmmmm I am not blaming anyone when I am relaying the setup of the JW org. The setup is women are to be in subjection plain and simple. They cannot teach in the KH. They cannot pray before the congregation. They can't wear pants. To sum it up they are oppressed. Just because you, exwhyzee, did not see anyone "purposely" mistreat a woman does not mean that it didn't happen. My point is the whole set up of the org is mistreating women. Whether it is on purpose or not. When in some cultures they circumcise their daughters with a piece of broken glass and hold her down and spread her legs and cut off her clitoris with no pain killer do you think the parents really think they are harming their daughter or helping her in the long run? Keeping her "pure" so in their culture they can marry her off?.......That little girl feels the pain whether her parents are "purposely" hurting her or not. When a black person states facts about the civil rights movement are they blaming white people or relaying facts? Funny how when women express the same sentiment they are suddenly blaming men........

  Love the double standard. Prejudice is prejudice whether it be because of someone's skin color or genitals. It's all the same. Exwhyzee I am sure in your mind you think you have it all figured out but I am sorry you don't. Just admit that the society hates women and there is no excuse for how they are treated. It's very simple. You don't have to share your story of how hard it is to be a white male......Must be so difficult to be on top of the pecking order......like I said you have my sympathy. Maybe you can share your story of opression with a Muslim woman or a JW woman or a little girl who has just been circumcised. I am sure they can relate.......
• 

  Band on the Run

  Penises are not bad per se. Most women would agree. What connection possibly exists between a penis and teaching, prayer, ordering, commanding, demeaning, sexualizing. Some JW men are gems but they are swimming agains the current.

  Many people say it is a reaction of jealousy b/c women give birth. Something a penis bearer lacks. I feel something else must be happening.

  When we were in preschool and kindergarten, we thought the difference between boys and girls was hair length. But penis or vagina is just as silly as hair length.
• 

  exwhyzee

  BANDONTHERUN

  We are smarter than brothers, not the same, Smarterr

  We know our WT better. JW men are low wage earners. They aren't men's men. JW women will kill eachother over the JW male crumbs.

  Whether you meant to or not, you made a very sexist remark in your original post. You made a unfair blaket statment about JW men. You werent talking about "equality" your were talking about "beter than" and "smarter than" You even dispairaged their masculinity. If a Man said things like this about women he would be considered a sexist bully. If someone made a comment like this about a person of another race, especially a minority he would be a considered a racist. You are able to make these broad sweeping statements about JW men and seem utterly surprised that someone dared to take exception to it. Talk about a double standard. You don't even have a good opinion of JW women who you say would kill eachother over the crumbs JW men drop thier way. Yet you think you are somehow defending women .

  You now have gone from talking about how opperssed it was not being allowed to wear pants to the meeting and comparing it to barbaric female circumcision....with broken glass no less ! What brought that up.? What JW male would go along with a thing like that? Talk about going off on tangents.

  NEXT TOPIC PLEASE !
• 

  Awen

  I agree with BotR and MeanGirl when they say women are oppressed in the Org.

  I will cite a few examples.

  I knew a Sister by the name of Lori. She married a new Brother by the name of Walt. I often visited their home and shared meals with them or went out into service with them. On one occasion I was speaking with Walt about some topic when Lori interjected her opinion. Walt responded to his wife by saying "You should wait until the men are finished speaking before you comment." I was taken aback. I sat there stunned and saw the look of extreme sadness cross Lor's face. She had been a dear friend before her marriage (I had been unaware that she had been seeking a marriage mate) and her husband's actions really pissed me off. So after we continued our conversation I mentioned Lor's comment and how insightful it was and invited her to interrupt me any time she wanted to with her keen insight. In effect, I put her husband in his place without challenging his headship. When I was leaving she smiled at me and thanked me for my kindness. Walt later apologized to his wife (so she told me).

  Another Sister by the name of Joan was married to a former Bethelite, Paul. They had 2 children who weren't what most JW kids tended to be. They weren't regular at the meetings, had long hair, etc. You get the picture. Paul ran a photography business and his wife helped him. Actually she ran most of it but his name was on the business license. When I first became a Witness my family turned me out and Paul and Joan was gracious enough to allow me to stay with them. Only problem is I was to stay in a 10x6 camper trailer behind their house with no running water, toilet or shower. Paul seemed to think he was doing me a great service. Joan and the teenage kids thought I should be allowed to stay in the house. Paul disagreed and exerted his "headship". So I stayed in this trailer during the summer months with the outside temperature rising well above 100 F. I would be soaked in sweat and the trailer was infested with ants. I had to urinate in a portable toliet or walk up the road and use the facilities at a local gas station. I also had no way to cook food as I wasn't invited in to eat. Now I was in good standing, I attended more meetings than Paul did, went out in FS, I was baptized, held down a full time job (had to pay Paul rent) and was treated worse than a non-JW. I stayed until January through part of the winter. I had finally had enough when I had to shower outside with ice on the ground. The hot water heater they had worked on a timer, so I only had hot water if someone didn't use it all up before the timer ran out. Most days I was showering outside in 30 F weather in a pair of shorts and flip flops. All through this Joan begged her husband in vain to allow me to come into the house. Or the boys would sneak me into the house when their Dad wasn't home. Paul was very irregular at the meetings because of work and no surprise his children weren't spiritual. Yet he often belittled then for not going (when he didn't), turned off the electricity to their room if he thought they were misbehaving or just because he wanted to and acted the entire time as if he was such a charitible person. His wife would sometimes confide in me that she wanted to leave him but was waiting until the boys turned 18 (which she did eventually do). last I heard she had went to college, found out what the Truth really was and divorced her husband. He was able to re-marry with no problem, whereas she was labeled an apostate. To my knowledge they boys have no contact with their Dad but have a great relationship to their mom. She was such a kind hearted person and Paul was an ass of the worst extreme. But because he was a man he got away with all sorts of mental abuse, often calling his wife stupid in front of others, including me. Two days before I left for good he remarked that his wife was stupid for not getting the boys to the meeting on time (which was his fault for holding her up at work). I looked at Joan and then at Paul and said "You're right. She is stupid. She married you."

  I could probably go on as I recall many examples of this. Suffice to say women are treated as second class citizens today, whereas in 1st Century Christianity they were accorded far more respect by Jesus.

  May you have peace,

  Awen
• 

  bafh

  The other thing I think that contributes to the way men and women interact is the inherit emotional needs of men. By this I mean that men are driven to acheive status, and usually this is done at work. But, because they are encouraged not to be educated or to pursue a career, the only place for status left is within the organization. So you have ego starved men "reaching out" for the only allowable status by becoming a MS, Elder, CO, etc.

  In my opinion, when you give uneducated, ego-starved men a little power and control (i.e. headship and teaching), the tendancy is to misuse it because they are desperate to keep it. So they become harsh, self-serving, and rigid. The rare elders or MS who are balanced, kind and loving often are men who have some level of status outside of the congregation, through success in a business, career, or profession. They tend to view the "position" in the congregation as a way to really serve others instead of a way to unconsciously satisfy their ego.

  Of course, men and women suffer because of how things are set up and are prevented from having authentic relationships with each other. So, it's not US vs. Them. There are no winners here, only losers.

  ~bafh
• 

  TD

  BOTR

  What could the GB do if every female JW showed up in a pantsuit on the same day.

  I haven't set foot in a KH even as a casual visitor in 20+ years, but I would not only come to see that, I would pay money to see it as well. I would cheer you on and my wife (Who is a kindred spirit to many of the ladies of JWN) would be right there with you.

  On the subject of men in the JW org: Do you know what a "trimming" is? Can you describe it in general terms? Maybe the practice has gone by the wayside, but I know it was still alive and well with C.O.'s in the 1970's.
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  meangirl

  Exwhyzee, it is me, MEANGIRL, that brough up female circumcision and BANDONTHERUN that started the post. Get your facts straight, especially if you are going to quote people and blame them for saying things...... I brought up female circumcision because it is that same attitude/view of women that oppresses women at the hall and circumcises helpless little girls. It is the same attitude just differing degrees of how it is expressed. You still haven't admitted that women are treated worse in the org.....I am guessing you are an older white male.....completely clueless about reality. Go on and live in your little world where you are so mistreated. Again, go ahead and meet with a little girl who has been circumcised and share horror stories about discrimination......poor pitiful you.
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  meangirl

  You now have gone from talking about how opperssed it was not being allowed to wear pants to the meeting and comparing it to barbaric female circumcision....with broken glass no less ! What brought that up.? What JW male would go along with a thing like that? Talk about going off on tangents.

  NEXT TOPIC PLEASE !

  Evidently enough JW men went along with it to the point that the mysoginstic governing body had a whole Awake dedicted to it basically persauding JW dads in other countries to stop mulitating their daughters....duh.
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  No Room For George

  I don't have much of anything to contribute to this thread, but wanted to say this is a great thread. Great points on both sides of the gender aisle.
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  Band on the Run

  Yes, an older white male who graduated from the leading women's college attached to a male univeristy at the time and an early member of National Organization for Women. Part of the wave that integrated large, elite corporate law firms. Blacks also integrated at the same time. In past centuries, no decent law firm could find a single woman or black to hire. Suddenly, the federal laws outlaw gender and racial discrimination. Just a coincidence that now half of their associates are female and/or black.

  To make matters worse, Jews were completely removed from corporate law when I entered. There were a handful of Jewish firms that pick up steam. Christians went to Christian firms and Jews went to Jewish firms. Banking, anittrust, all the status areas were totally Christian. Christian as in WASP, mainstream, not Baptist. It changed a bit after WWII with a handful of merged firms. Only when it was time did people have an equal opportunity to practice where they wanted.

  I know men don't have it easy. Compared to women, though, they do. Call it poetic license to make a large, accurate point.