lol ... I was just funnin' with ya! hehehe 'definately' is one of my top ten,, and of course 'rediculous'
:D :D have a smile with me, xyz,,, we are all (both genders) hard done by!!!
tal
JW Women Self-0Loathing - Get a Back Bone
by Band on the Run 98 Replies latest jw friends
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exwhyzee
Yep...it's true we've all been a fected negatively in some way.....I mean look at me....last year I couldn't even spell Aposdate...today I are one.
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talesin
ROFL!!~!
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soft+gentle
well I have just re-read this topic and my conclusion is that women have it much much worse than guys amongst Jehovah witnesses. Yes there are women who can get up and walk out but these women would have been CEOs, managers, highflyers if they hadn't become Jehovahs witnesses. Applause for xjw women who have left on their own or have left before their husbands as this journey out would have been very tough.
this from meangirl also stand out to me.
Injustice will continue until those who are not affected by it are just as enraged as those who are.
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meangirl
@ Garyneal: This topic is JW women in the org and how they have it. If you compare the life of a JW man and a JW woman, women definitely have it harder. You said society (not the society) men have it hard as they can't cry etc. I agree with that but we are talking with THE SOCIETY not in society. So everything I am saying is refering to life as a JW male/female as was the topic of this thread.
I find it incredibly sad that I have to debate the fact JW women have it much worse in the org. I am honestly baffled that some here just cannot see that. Again what is being done here by some debating the fact that JW women have it much worse than JW men is the same as saying that white people had it worse during the civil rights movement.....it does not make sense.
It is sad when you get out of an oppressive organization and think you have found others who truly care about justice and want to see all people treated fairly to find out that in fact chauvinism is very much alive on this board-this board where I was supposed to find enlightened people like myself.
Wow, I have been accussed of being a lesbian as I guess in exwhyzee's mind that was such an insult that further shows the kind of people on this board. The fact that the plight of women in the org is not taken seriously by all on this board just amazes me. These same ones felt something was wrong in the org and perhaps were mistreated and so they left only to come here on this board and not show compassion to those who there is no denying are so discriminated against in the org (women) that it should not even be a debate.
When you tell a human that they were created only to "compliment" another human and you constantly tell them they are to be submissive that is so much more of an injustice than telling someone they are to be the "head" and "lead". How could women in the org ever be managers, etc. when they are to allow their husband to make the decisions (except of course what to cook for dinner and what color to the paint kitchen)....If you can't see the injustice on that and how it does not compare to what JW men are put through.....well there is nothing more I can say to you.
To those who showed support and took the thread seriously, thank you. I still feel very hopeless as I left an org that tried to oppress me to another group of people where some sadly have that same attitude. Sometimes I wonder why some on this board even left.....
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TD
meangirl,
It would probably be quite an eye-opener if a man could spend just one day in a woman's "shoes' and endure what she endures.... Men and women try (Or at least should try) to be empathetic to each other, but at the end of the day, I don't think we ever truly understand each other because it's just not possible to live the life of the other in any real sense.
When a man, who has no inkling of what it's like to be a woman in the JW social system does not agree with or even grasp the observation that JW women have it much worse in the organization, I'm sure it's really, really frustrating. I understand why you might get mad. But surely you can see the flip-side of the coin?
When we attempt to quantify and compare social stress, it's very, very easy to fall into the trap of stating subjective experience as objective fact. Subjective experience may well be true, but it can be difficult or impossible to convince someone else of that truth. It's part of the age-old trap than men and women both fall into when they each get home at the end of the day and start arguing over whose day was worse. The only real way that type of argument could ever be settled would be for both people to magically go back in time and relive that day as the other person. (And then they still might not agree...LOL) --Otherwise there simply isn't a frame of reference to argue from. That's why I asked the OP if she knew what a "trimming" was. Obviously she's intimately familiar with what it's like to be a JW female, but I was curious about what (If anything) was being placed onto the other side of the scales.
I would never in a million years argue with you over whether JW women have it worse or not. I don't have a frame of comparison to argue from because I've never been a JW and female. I do know that in the JW social system, women are treated as inferior in authority to men. That's a fact that can't be argued with. But I can only imagine what that second-class status actually translates to in practical terms, I can only imagine what it must be like the day an intelligent, mature single mother can no longer pray at the family table just because her 12 year old son got baptized! --It's got to be ridiculous, demeaning and insulting.
You've got a very empathetic audience here. The men of JWN are not typical JW's and probably never were. Most of them are very intelligent and either successful in life or on their way to becoming so. They do not buy into JW attitudes about women now and many never did.
However, this isn't the first thread of its type. We had another one just two months age that started off with, "How have you adjusted to not being a dictator simply because you had a penis?" or something to that effect. --Why not just ask, "When did you stop beating your wife?" and have done with it?
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LongHairGal
MEAN GIRL: I know it is frustrating to try to make people see how bad women have it in the religion. Even some women won't admit it because they have some status or are being rewarded for being 'a good little woman'. Whatever. While I am thankful for TD's comment above, certain other men won't even concede that much. Some just can't relate, some don't care. I know what you mean that some men will accuse a woman of being a lesbian if she 'dares' to address issues about women's rights. In the 'world' sometimes if you reject a guy you get: "you don't want to #*ck me, you must be gay". So, you can't win when you discuss this topic either in the religion or out of it. But, I will say this: the bad treatment of women in the religion, in and of itself, was reason enough for me to leave and I am glad to be out of there. I wasn't having any of it!
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garyneal
In the 'world' sometimes if you reject a guy you get: "you don't want to #*ck me, you must be gay".
As I bow out of this conversation, I must agree with TD in that we will never truly know what it is like to be a member of the opposite sex and deal with what they have to deal with. I remember a Dilbert cartoon where some members were asked to take sensitivity training and imaging being a woman for a day. Wally, imagined people opening the door for him, being polite for him, smiling, and imagine himself being popular. I can concur with that and often believed women had it easier than men in life when it came to the opposite sex.
That said, I can imagine women having it rough in a patriarch type society or social setting. I guess there are advantages and disadvantages depending on what role men and women play. Men who like taking charge and women who like their men like that fit in well in these environments. I believe too, that a lot of this is evolutionary in that it is deeply ingrained in our species (the strong man leading and protecting the woman and the woman desiring to be lead and protected).
Incidently, I've had men and women think I was gay because I did not come across as your typical MALE stereotype. So your quote above goes both ways.
Have a nice day.
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Band on the Run
I wish JW women would bond together as true sisters, who face similar situations, such as dress rules, not being full partners in the ministry, whatever, being beaten, etc. They could learn so much from each other. As I said before, if every women pulled her weight at the same time, the rules against women could not exist. Of course, if JW women believed in such camraderie and politcal action, they would not be Witnesses.
I recall the 1960s when Uncle Tom was a hated figure. After reading the book, I no longer agree. We give them the power to take our own power away. It is not only mean men. You need mean men+subservient to a fault women. Actually, publishers should not accept what they do from elders. It is another example of turning power over against your own interest. Everyone plays their role.
I grew up with abuse. My father could not have beaten my mom or the kids more than once if we did not acquiesce. It is such a vicious cycle. Abuse is multigenerational. I have no answers. It is a very sore point with me.
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Lady Lee
How exactly do you give something like power to someone else when you don't believe you have it to begin with?
When you are taught (often from infancy) that there is a certain way that GOD wants things to be who are you to "acquiesce"?
I'm not saying it is right to sit back and take it but when you don't believe you have th eright or even have th epower int he first place then acquiescing is out of th equestion. It is like the blind man who never stops to ask "What is over there?" when he doesn't know that there is something over there to ask about.
Women may know abotu how the world sees that women's power has been taken away from them bit to the person who has lived with inequality it is very easy to accept the Bible's perspective that they world is wrong and that if people followed the Bible the world might not be in such a mess.
So a bunch of old men decide they like the Biblical standards of inequality and teach everyone to follow it or risk death, People if it was so easy to revoilt against this kind of misogyny then there would be very few JWs in the world today.
They have been lied to, conned, manipulated, forced and even beaten into submission. Stop blaming women for their victimization by others