by Nickolas 269 Replies latest jw friends
have you considered trying medical marijuana?
I have absolutely considered it, dear Nick (again, peace to you!)... because I know folks for whom it works/has worked. Are you recommending it? (Or anyone else - feel free to speak up!)
Again, peace!
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SA... who must stop typing now, sorry...
That was absolutely amazing, Shelby. Enjoyed it thoroughly.
That's not accurate, dear one. Both dear tec and I... and others... have offered that there IS evidence: His Son, for one. That you and others REFUSE to consider the evidence offered... because it is not PHYSICAL and so cannot be "proven" pursuant to the proscriptions of what it takes to prove something PHYSICAL... is our fault, how?
It is just so difficult for me to consider evidence I cannot perceive. Is it your fault? No, I suppose not, but you should be able to comprehend the conundrum it presents. Like trying to describe the sunset to a blind person, perhaps. Or the fourth dimension to someone who can perceive only three. I am left with two possibilities. Either I just don't have the ability to perceive the things you do, or perhaps the things you perceive don't exist. Stalemate.
Anyway, basically I'm reading into your post that at least parts of the Bible are, indeed, not an accurate source of information for one to know God and there are other apocryphal works that need to be considered in addition to the parts of the Bible that are ok. Also that one who believes as you and Tammy do is free to hear what he wishes and refrain from hearing what he wishes not to. It sounds a little like cafeteria Christianity except that you get to fill your tray with the food from other restaurants too. I do get the distinction that the Bible is a volume of books rather than just one, but the central characters are all pretty much connected. As a body of technical writings it is not something to which I would refer if I had a question. But I do prefer steelhead to bass and bass to tuna, now that you mention it.
I think I'll have to reread your post tomorrow when I'm not so knackered.
Are you recommending it?
It is non-addictive (although it can be habit forming in those who are not disciplined, so that doesn't apply to you) has no known lethal dose and is reported to produce satisfactory results in terminal cancer patients. If I was in chronic pain I would at least try it.
Good night, all. Off to TIFF tomorrow but will pop in to take a pulse in the morning.
And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!
Obviously, the author was speaking of clergy (and so, was absolutely right!)... as well as those who follow them. . . . AGuest
You may well be right Shelby . . . but the principle can also be applied to the miraculous "physical" manifestations.
An example in point is the Apostle Paul . . . miraculously converted by a physical manifestation that was witnessed by his travelling companions. And here was a man who was an active "antichrist" . . . murdering and persecuting the followers of Christ.
Even the Pharoa of Egypt got more proof . . . a slavemaster of God's people.
Why is someone like me less worthy of such favourable treatment?
Why is someone like me less worthy of such favourable treatment?
No need to feel left out Sizemik, like me you are one of the little people.
The bible would not have made such a romping good yarn if the Hebrew desert god had send Moses to do his conjuring tricks for a sizemik. Now a Pharaoh makes the story so much more important and the desert god out to be better than royalty. Every plot needs to have the hero succeeding against a powerful enemy and impossible odds.
If it's a bible story then the hero is aided by his god. In Greek/Roman mythology they each had many gods, which I find a lot more exciting in a good thriller.
That was absolutely amazing, Shelby. Enjoyed it thoroughly.
Glad to have obliged, dear Nick (again, the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!).
It is just so difficult for me to consider evidence I cannot perceive.
I totally understand that and I believe it safe to say, dear tec (the greatest of love and peace to you, as well, dear one!) does, too!
Is it your fault? No, I suppose not, but you should be able to comprehend the conundrum it presents.
Dear one, WE understand YOUR conundrum; we have been there. Just like YOU (rather, many of those who disbelieve as you do) SHOULD be able to understand those who still "believe" in the manner you once did, since you were once there. But I don't find that same patience and tolerance. Indeed, I seem to see more lack of tolerance... and inability to "suffer fools" (although most who are this way were once such fools, themselves).
Why is that, exactly? Wouldn't it be quite hypocritical of me to either have once not believed... or thought I believed but based on blind faith... to now know what I know and then take issue with you for not being where I am? Really, wouldn't love simply prompt me to share what I do now know... while waiting patiently FOR you to get it... while not judging or loving you less if you can't/don't? Sure, I want you to know/see/hear what I do; I want EVERYONE to know/see/hear. But that's not up to me... anymore than it's up to disbelievers to MAKE believers see/get what THEY now get.
Like trying to describe the sunset to a blind person, perhaps.
I would disagree on the basis that at least a blind person would entertain that there IS a sunset... and at least try to IMAGINE it. Sure, she may not see it exactly as I do (then, again, she may... especially if she had SOME sight previous to becoming blind). But if the blind person says to you, "There is NO sunset because I'VE never seen one...", well, what can you do with that??
Or the fourth dimension to someone who can perceive only three.
Again, if the person perceiving only three will not even entertain the possibility that there is fourth... and that it must be seen differently than the other three... the likelihood that he WOULD see the fourth... even if it was right in front of his face... is slim to none.
I am left with two possibilities. Either I just don't have the ability to perceive the things you do, or perhaps the things you perceive don't exist. Stalemate.
No stalemate, unless you want it to be, dear one. Because the difference between your thinking and, say, mine... is that I realized I had to believe I COULD have such an ability, even if I didn't to start with. Like basketball - I may not have the ability to dunk, YET... but I at least have to believe I can OBTAIN it... in order to ever do so. Same thing with flying: true, I may not be able to fly on my own (with this body), but there is now a means for this BODY to fly, yes? What if folks had stuck with the notion that man can NEVER fly... in ANY manner? Once you rule out the POSSIBILITY... you might as well go and sit down and leave off whatever it is you THOUGHT possible.
Anyway, basically I'm reading into your post that at least parts of the Bible are, indeed, not an accurate source of information for one to know God and there are other apocryphal works that need to be considered in addition to the parts of the Bible that are ok.
That's not accurate, dear Nick... and I have to say that I'm surprised. Because it tells me that you still don't quite get it: there is only ONE accurate Source of information to know God: His Son, the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH. ONLY him. However, there is information in the Bible that is accurate ABOUT these two... as well as a whole lot that is NOT accurate... and information in other writings, including the current Apophrycal works... and other writings that have not even been found, yet... or, while perhaps found, not revealed to the world at large.
But it is all irrelevant. It can only tell you ABOUT them... and even then it's limited, if not inaccurate. It can not help you KNOW them... which should be the goal. I have found, though, that while a whole lot of people SAY they want to know God/Christ... when it all comes down... they don't. Not really. They want to SAY they know God/Christ. Meaning, they want to know ABOUT them. But actually getting to KNOW them? Uh-uh. I cannot tell you how many people have posted/PM'd, "Okay, Shelby, how can I do this?"... only to beg off when I respond and say, "Here's what you do; you can do this, anyone can - even call me, here's my number, I'll help if you need it, but you really don't need me..." Silence. Most stop posting on the board altogether.
Also that one who believes as you and Tammy do is free to hear what he wishes and refrain from hearing what he wishes not to.
Nope, you got that one backward, too, dear one: anyone who believes/disbelieves as YOU do... is free to hear... or refrain... what we are sharing on these matters. Unlike religion... we have no "penalty" proclamations to share. The GOOD news... doesn't include proclamations of doom, gloom, and destruction. It is merely a message regarding an OPEN Door... that ANYONE who WISHES... can enter through... and receive life. Will some receive death/destruction? Yes. But who that IS... is NOT for us to say, at all. God is righteous, so we trust that WHOMEVER it ends up being, everyone who is NOT a part of that will rejoice and be glad. Unfortunately, today, for some "christians", it's homosexuals, Muslims, communists, even some minorities. For some Muslims, it's the same, except for "christians" vs. them. Everybody has "somebody" they want to "go."
Us? We would rather everyone just woke the heck up... learned the law of the NEW Covenant, which is love... EVEN of one's enemies. Ever gonna happen? We believe not so much. Because there are more "influences" pitting man against man than religion. Many more... and some not even of the physical world.
It sounds a little like cafeteria Christianity except that you get to fill your tray with the food from other restaurants too.
Because you have misunderstood me, dear one. "Cafeteria", yes, if you lack faith so as to need the Bible, writings, etc. But isn't that what gets most of those who claim to follow God, Christ, etc., in trouble? Surely, you know the atrocities committed in the name of "God" and "Jesus"... because of what either is... or people claim is... written "in the Bible", yes? The TRUTH, however, is that there is only ONE table to eat from... and ONE "dish": Christ is that table... and his flesh and blood that dish. TRUE food... and TRUE drink. Eating from the Tree... of Life.
I do get the distinction that the Bible is a volume of books rather than just one, but the central characters are all pretty much connected.
Okay, so back to my library analogy: you're in the "fishing" section of the "sports" section. Central theme (fishing)... but you don't need to read every book. Do you?
As a body of technical writings it is not something to which I would refer if I had a question.
WONDERFUL!! It SHOULDN'T be what you refer to! Not as to God and the technicalities related to Him, at least. Again, the BEST Source for that... is Christ!
But I do prefer steelhead to bass and bass to tuna, now that you mention it.
Okay, see? So, in that section you would read the books that pertain to catching steelhead, yes? Of course, since you also prefer bass, you might peruse some of those, as well. But the bass books aren't going to give you the DETAIL you need as to catching steelhead. Right? Even so... wouldn't you get even more/better info from the author? Of course, you would. But even better than the author... what about the SUBJECT of the particular book? Wouldn't he/she be able to give you the BEST information? (You know, if steelhead could speak, I mean - LOLOLOL! "Hey, Steelie, so what's the BEST way for a guy like me to catch one 'o youse? Do youse like worms? Are are youse guys more into sardines?")
I think I'll have to reread your post tomorrow when I'm not so knackered.
Knackered? You read my post when you were knackered?!! Well! I don't know whether to be insulted... or grateful! LOLOLOL! (BTW - what's "knackered"? )
It is non-addictive (although it can be habit forming in those who are not disciplined, so that doesn't apply to you) has no known lethal dose and is reported to produce satisfactory results in terminal cancer patients. If I was in chronic pain I would at least try it.
Well, since I consider you a straight-up kind of guy... with a good head on his shoulders... I will certainly take that under advisement, dear one - LOLOLOL!
Good day... and, again, peace to you, my dear!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
You may well be right Shelby . . . but the principle can also be applied to the miraculous "physical" manifestations. An example in point is the Apostle Paul . . . miraculously converted by a physical manifestation that was witnessed by his travelling companions. And here was a man who was an active "antichrist" . . . murdering and persecuting the followers of Christ. Even the Pharoah of Egypt got more proof . . . a slavemaster of God's people. Why is someone like me less worthy of such favourable treatment?
Because, people like you... and me, dear Size (peace to you!)... who do NOT mistreat God's people... can receive such in a more wonderous (and less painful) way: through faith. Yes, Paul received what some believe to be a "blessing" because of my Lord's voice manifestation. Let me ask you, though: can you drink the cup that Paul had to drink? Paul wasn't called because he was good and righteous, dear one - he was called to SUFFER... and suffer he did. Can YOU do that for the sake of Christ? I don't think I can...
As for Pharaoh, what was the end of HIS "proof"? Can you drink HIS "cup"?
People do NOT know what they're asking for when they ask for manifestations such as those received by Paul, Pharaoh... Hezekiah... Nebuchadnezzar... and others. You don't understand what comes WITH such manifestations: suffering, sickness, insanity, death. How do you not remember this?
For those who exercise faith FIRST, however... the resultant "reward"... is much kinder, milder, loving. It is not presented because one is so STUBBORN... and seeking to kill/harm God's people... that they HAVE to be treated as a MULE... and so GOADED... or "whipped"... so as to see and believe. For these, it's comes because of their faith... and so no pain is added with it.
I promise you, dear one... you really do NOT want to receive what Saul of Tarsus, Joseph's pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar... and others HAD to receive BEFORE they would cease their mistreatment and persecution. The result? They had no choice but to believe that the Most Holy One of Israel truly existed. So, please, consider what you are contending about, dear Size; because the result is not what you and so many others think it is. Receiving a manifestation because of one's contention and mistreatment of God's people... was/is not necessarily the "good" thing you might think it was/is.
like me you are one of the little people.
To the contrary, dear Glad (peace to you, as well, dear one): it's the little people who DON'T contend for such but merely walk by faith, and so receive the "reward." The "big" people are those who, perhaps like you... think God's owes THEM something (rather that realizing that it's them who owe HIM... for the sacrifice of His Son... by means of which YOU can live, just like the "little people").
Again, peace to you, both!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
I'm gonna jump back into this thread.
On the topic of the blind not being able to "see" a sunset. Yes true they cannot see a sunset with their eyes. But they can still perceive it's effects on the world around them and thus know that it's occuring. When I was a child I had an accident which took my sight from me for a time. I was completely blind and I recall it quite vividly. Also in my life I have been blessed enough to have friends who were deaf and or blind. When asking them how they perceive the world I received many different answers (based upon whther they were blind or deaf). For a blind person although they cannot see a sunset, it's presence can be discerned by it's effect upon the environment. Birds often become quieter near sunset. The sun's heat isn't as intense at sunset as it is, say at noontime. It's cooler (heat wise) after sunset. So while they may not be able to literally see the sunset, they can discern that's it's happening (or has happened) based upon other sensory information.
This is what's called personal experience. Neither Shelby, Tammy nor myself can tell you that God exists. We can share personal experiences but that doesn't mean a hill of beans to you unless you experience it yourself. Same as a sunset for a blind person. We both experience God (a sunset) in our own way. I think this is why people refer to the act of coming to "know" Christ as "accepting Jesus as your personal Savior." It's based upon YOUR experiences and not that of others. It's not the experiences of people in the Bible, on this forum or whomever.
@ Nickolas
You say it's hard to believe in evidence you cannot perceive. I say good for you. God doesn't want followers who blindly follow Him. He wants people to know that He exists based upon personal experience. The Bible is just a road sign pointing the way to the destination but you still have to make your way there and not give up. This is where Paul talked about running the race to it's completion and not tiring out. At one time my faith was completely gone and I felt like a ship without a sail or rudder, drifting aimlessly on a vast sea of despair.
But I kept looking, I kept knocking and eventually I found my way again. I realized I couldn't put faith in the words of others but had to rely on my own experiences. Likewise this is why I have such a huge problem with modern science. How am I to know these people are being truthful? How am I to know they have MY best interests at heart? How am I to know they know what they're talking about? Now replace the word "science" with "religion" and you see MY dilemma. For the most part it seems to be a mass consensus or acknowledgement of a body of people who all agree on the same theories, facts, arguments or what have you that forms a conclusion.
In other words you and so many others have FAITH that what has been printed in these scientific journal are true, because you lack the knowledge, skill or equipment to test these theories yourself. To my knowledge none of what you hold to be true is based upon personal research/testing.
How is this in any way different than what people who do believe in God have done?
So, please, consider what you are contending about, dear Size; because the result is not what you and so many others think it is.
Thank you for your explanation Shelby . . . but I can't accept it. I have not mentioned any anticipated results and what I might make of them.
You have restricted your answer to the context of the examples I provided . . . but they were examples only. There are others who have witnessed the supernatural manifestations they considered were of divine origin . . . with no detrimental "cup" being force fed them as a reward, over and above the natural hardships of the environment of their day.
I don't consider God or Jesus "owe" me anything . . . nor do I consider it a "contention" with anybody. I'm merely seeking a reasonable explanation as to why they deem it fit to grant some special treatment that is denied others. As to whether I can drink the cup? . . . who knows? They were just men . . . I am a man. But I don't even get the chance to try and fail. Someone else has decided that for me. Perhaps it will be forthcoming sometime in the future . . . perhaps not.
But thank you anyway.
Awen, I must admit this was a little amusing . . .
I was completely blind and I recall it quite vividly.
But . . . I get your point . . . on the personal experience/perception. It's simply that some do not have such an experience or perception to call upon . . . perhaps it awaits some time in the future.
How is this in any way different than what people who do believe in God have done?
It is very different Awen. Scientific concensus is not achieved by the testimonies of individuals who each had a common but unique experience. It's convenient to believe that, but it's simply not true. Falsifiability is the missing ingredient.
It seems that believers here see the search for evidence by others as a questioning of their beliefs . . . I can assure you in my case that is not true. It is plain that you have sound reasons for what you believe . . . I just want the same reasons . . . sound ones.
There are others who have witnessed the supernatural manifestations they considered were of divine origin . . . with no detrimental "cup" being force fed them as a reward, over and above the natural hardships of the environment of their day.
Those who had no faith at all... or those who faith to begin with? Just trying to get a feel for what you're talking about, and which 'others' you are speaking about. My answer would have been the same as Shelby's above: that Paul suffered, and well, we all know how things turned out for Pharoah. Also, while Paul came to know and love Christ... we don't get that same picture from the story about Pharoah.
Just believing that someone eXists does not mean everything is okay, or that you are 'saved', or that you are good, or know love. A person could have proof of Christ and still deny Him. (not the reality of Him, but HIM and what He taught, and the Truth He showed us) Some do this even now.
His promise is this:
"If you love me you will obey my commands, and my Father will love you, and we will come and make our home with you."
That invitation is for everyone. Perhaps the only thing 'special' about those who hear, is that they had faith in Christ, and trusted Him to keep his promise? Perhaps instead of asking "what makes 'you' so special that you hear and I don't", you might consider that it is simply that they had faith in Christ and that they COULD hear Him? Not necessarily right away, even. But they kept knocking and kept seeking, and the door was opened to them. (or will be) As promised.
Peace,
Tammy
Thank you Tammy . . . I'll keep on knocking then.
