(((Size)))
You're very welcome.
Peace to you,
Tammy
The Hubble, Yahweh, the Bible, and faith.
by Nickolas 269 Replies latest jw friends
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Nickolas
BTW - what's "knackered"?
It means tired, as in ready to go to bed. Like I am now. Just speed-read the posts that followed my penultimate one so they didn't sink in much deeper than my scalp. I'll give them a little more attention in the morning. G'night.
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THE GLADIATOR
AGuest From the last page..."To the contrary, dear Glad (peace to you, as well, dear one): it's the little people who DON'T contend for such but merely walk by faith, and so receive the "reward." The "big" people are those who, perhaps like you... think God's owes THEM something (rather that realizing that it's them who owe HIM... for the sacrifice of His Son... by means of which YOU can live, just like the "little people.")"
Thank you for trying to straighten me out but I am afraid you have mistaken me for someone else. I do not believe that there is a god who talks to humans or offers them anything more than they already have, that is a short, uncertain life on earth. If the universe is pervaded by a powerful invisible intelligence it would be too important to discuss its plans with me.
The idea that my ego is large enough to allow me to think that such a being owes me something is preposterous beyond words. The idea that such a being would owe me something if I walked by faith is even more alarming. If we have enough faith or belief in anything, the mind is capable of making our hope an internal, subjective, reality.
Whether a king, queen, pauper or gladiator all humans are little people. Unable to accept this, some entertain the idea of a personal god that will talk to them if they have enough faith and that faith leads to everlasting life. It’s a big and ambitious plan for people who cannot accept the insignificance of their existence. I envy you your illusion. You should treasure it for reality is not so gentle or rewarding.
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Nickolas
Faith, dear one. - Shelby, p. 1
together with faith... - Tammy, p. 1
believe in him by Faith. ... it is a matter of FAITH ... “without faith .. “Nowfaith is ... In order to have faith ...faith, ... Real faith ... I have FAITH. - Bella 15, p. 1
we can have faith and be rational. In fact, faith is essential in order to have rationality ... Faith and reason are not contrary. They go well together (since all reasoning presupposes a type of faith) Awen, p.1
As to why thsi faith over another faith? ... never has been and never will be, based on "blind faith". - Paul, p. 1
Faith can't be defended by evidence . . . otherwise it wouldn't be faith would it? Unfortunately, defending belief based on faith, is by far the more difficult task . . . that's just the way it is. - sizemik, p. 2
Yes, but it wasn't a believer, dear Size (again, peace to you!). For someone who truly is of faith... which faith is not dependent upon some writings, etc., nothing poses a thread ("If God IS for you, who can be against you?"). Nothing to fear. On the other hand, there appears to be those who've moved on from faith who associate ANYTHING even remotely related to the WORD "faith" as something to be feared. Literally threatened, if their responses are any indication.- Shelby, p. 4
I guessfaith can hold different meanings depending on the context. - sizemik, p. 4
Again, what is so special about Faith? Is the exceptional faith of, say, the men who immolate themselves in crowded bazaars admirable? Certainly to many it is, but to many more it is not... Faith prevents one from seeking alternative conclusions, and that is why the faithfulcannot see what I see... I, for one, do not know He exists, therefore the rest - faith in His promise - has no prerequisite foundation. I circle back to the need for faith in Him and, finding none, faith in His promise falls away.- Nickolas, p. 4
Could a believer not say the same of an unbeliever... that faith ALLOWS us to see... and LACK of faith is "why the UNfaithful cannot see what [we] see?" - Shelby, p. 4
through their lack of faith ... so long as they put faith in HIM AND HIS BLOOD ... Shelby, p. 5
Also includes "Yahweh, the bible, and faith," though, right? With a specific query to those OF faith? - Tammy, p. 6
The limitation you speak of is absolute unquestioning Faith. Faith handed down from generation to generation in the form of the Holy Bible.- Nickolas, p. 6
If you are referring to blind, unquestioning faith in what some other person tells you your faith is supposed to BE, then I can agree. That is very limiting. But you are mistaken, imo, if you think people do not eXamine their faith, and why they have it, and still come out at the end WITH faith intact and even stronger than before ... Perhaps you might tell me how or where I am limited in my faith- Tammy, p. 6
I am unable to act on faith. Call it a personal failing but I've been fooled once before by faith.- Nickolas, p. 7
The idea that my ego is large enough to allow me to think that such a being owes me something is preposterous beyond words. The idea that such a being would owe me something if I walked by faith is even more alarming. If we have enough faith or belief in anything, the mind is capable of making our hope an internal, subjective, reality. ... Whether a king, queen, pauper or gladiator all humans are little people. Unable to accept this, some entertain the idea of a personal god that will talk to them if they have enough faith and that faith leads to everlasting life. It’s a big and ambitious plan for people who cannot accept the insignificance of their existence. I envy you your illusion. You should treasure it for reality is not so gentle or rewarding. - Gladiator, p. 8
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Faith is not evidence. It is an unshakable, cherished belief in something that cannot be proven but is nevertheless taken to be absolutely true and beyond questioning. That different faiths contradict one another belies their legitimacy. All that remains is evidence.
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Nickolas
(This JWN editor drives me nuts. I went back to add a quote to the above and everything went flakey)
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AGuest
I am afraid you have mistaken me for someone else.
No, I knew it was you, dear Glad (as always, peace to you!); however, I may have mistaken your comment "like me you are one of the little people" to be commensurate with dear Size's (peace to you, as well!) comment as to why "someone LIKE him (and, based on your comment, "like [you]") is "less worthy" of "such favorable treatment"... by God. Since you placed yourself in the same company (the less worthy little people), I commented as I would have to ANYONE who believed themselves a part of group. Please forgive me then, truly, if I misunderstood your position: I tend to take what folks post at face value... unless I know better (which I didn't, here) or am corrected (which has now occurred).
Thank you for your explanation Shelby . . . but I can't accept it.
You are quite welcome, dear Size (again, peace to you!)... and I totally understand that you cannot accept it. No worries, at all.
I have not mentioned any anticipated results and what I might make of them.
No, but I am not sure you needed to do so, dear one. I mean, there are a plethora of other examples that fall in line with these... with the same or similar results.
You have restricted your answer to the context of the examples I provided . . . but they were examples only.
I responded to the examples you gave... only to say those are pretty poor examples. I did not presume that you meant... or even knew of... others. I mean, these ARE the "usual suspects", after all - the examples most raise when they raise similar questions.
There are others who have witnessed the supernatural manifestations they considered were of divine origin . . . with no detrimental "cup" being force fed them as a reward, over and above the natural hardships of the environment of their day.
Would you be so kind as to name them? Note, I am meaning those like Paul, Pharaoh, etc., who lacked faith, as dear tec (the greatest of love and peace to you!), not those who received a manifestation was a RESULT of their faith. Because the results were absolutely different. You, however, admit you lack faith... AND gave examples of those who also did so... and so my point was what occurs in such instances. Indeed, I posted:
"For those who exercise faith FIRST, however... the resultant "reward"... is much kinder, milder, loving. It is not presented because one is so STUBBORN... and seeking to kill/harm God's people... that they HAVE to be treated as a MULE... and so GOADED... or "whipped"... so as to see and believe. For these, it's comes because of their faith... and so no pain is added with it.
I don't consider God or Jesus "owe" me anything . . . nor do I consider it a "contention" with anybody.
Dear Size... I beg you... please don't take this the wrong way, but yes, you do. You DO feel that if there IS a God... HE should manifest Himself to YOU... regardless of whether YOU manifest faith in HIM. I mean, that is the gist of your comments, dear one. Like Israel, however, you can't see how this IS a contention. EXACTLY a contention. That you don't "consider" either as what they are doesn't mean they aren't what they are. And really, what you (or I) consider is irrelevant: it's what HE considers... and He would consider your comments above as a "contention." Which says to ME... that although you and others here don't know/recognize it... you ARE Israel (contenders with God). You are actually doing no different than our forefathers... although, like them, you cannot SEE that.
I'm merely seeking a reasonable explanation as to why they deem it fit to grant some special treatment that is denied others.
Again, I BEG you, to not take offense but HEAR what I am stating to you, if you can: you were not merely seeking a reasonable explanation on this matter... because I gave you the TRUTHFUL explanation. To which you responded, "I cannot accept that." You cannot "accept" the answer, dear one... not because it isn't true, but because it doesn't purport with what YOU wish/need it to. You don't LIKE it... even though it's true. So, to say that you were seeking a reasonable explanation... then to reject that explanation... kind of belies what you say you were doing, does it not?
As to whether I can drink the cup? . . . who knows? They were just men . . . I am a man. But I don't even get the chance to try and fail. Someone else has decided that for me. Perhaps it will be forthcoming sometime in the future . . . perhaps not.
Dear one, it's not "over", yet. How can you say, then, that you don't even GET the chance? But let me ask you: do you REALLY want to even "see" if you CAN drink the same cup? WHY?? Why virtually ASK for a life of pain and suffering, if not premature death? Because THAT is what it will take for YOU to believe? Pain and suffering FOR God/Christ... or death as a result of obstinance? Sorry, but I truly do not GET that... when there is such a kinder, easier, milder, loving way...
I mean, I get it that sheep are considered weak, etc., and asses considered stronger, more useful., etc. But sheep don't have to be GOADED into a particular direction. They simply follow the shepherd's call (or steer clear of the dogs' bark/bite). Asses, though, often have to be whipped... just to move FORWARD.
But thank you anyway.
You are always quite welcome, but I'm not sure what you're thanking me for. Dear Size, I only shared the truth with you... which seemed to have offended your sense of... something. All I was trying to say to you was to reconsider what you were asking as to (a manifestation), how (empirically), and under what circumstances (lack of faith). I did that NOT to put you down, but to help you SEE what it was you were saying YOU should "also" have... and whether you truly "want" that. As you state, it could be forthcoming, yet. I truly hope not, though, at least not under such circumstances.
It seems that believers here see the search for evidence by others as a questioning of their beliefs . . .
I realize you made this comment to dear Awen (the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!), but I would like to respond as one of those "believers," if I may - thank you! I don't see others' search for evidence as a questioning of my beliefs. Nor do I take issue when anyone DOES question my beliefs. The thread ASKED for the basis of my beliefs... and I responded, honestly, sincerely, and accurately. It was/is my BELIEFS, however, that were/are being questioned... by those who don't (yet) understand them. Because every time I/we respond... the responses are "unacceptable" or something similar. So, not only are the beliefs questioned, there really is NO response that will suffice. And I think that's where and perhaps some others go, "Well, okay, no point in discussing it further." Because NOTHING we share will suffice.
The things I and others have shared on this board you did NOT get from religion, "christianity", or the WTBTS. You've never heard anything LIKE them. Yet, they are still VIEWED as if they are the same as the lies and false doctrines/prophecies of the former. When we remain silent, we are accused of having no answer/response. When we respond, we're accused of being brainwashed, delusional, or worse. It doesn't MATTER - if you don't WANT the answers... then NO answer will suffice.
So, what are we to do? Remain silent? Respond? Share what we've been given? Keep it to ourselves? What do you WANT? I think the answer to that is for us to leave OFF our faith... and follow you and your lack thereof. Unfortunately, while I can't speak for anyone but myself, I would have to say that that is not going to happen, dear one. Because MY faith and beliefs don't REST upon what YOU or anyone else believes... or does not believe. It rests on what has occurred with ME. The SAME as it would with YOU... if such things occurred with YOU.
That such has NOT occurred with you... isn't my/our fault. And your unwillingness to even entertain that it MIGHT be yours... isn't, either. This is between YOU... and God, dear one. EACH of us. Not you... and me/believers... and God. And the ONLY One who can answer these questions as to YOU... is the SON of God, Christ. He can... AND... if you KEEP seeking, KEEP asking, and KEEP knocking... HE, the Door, WILL be opened to YOU... just as he was to us.
I'll keep on knocking then.
Which is all you CAN do, at this time... and all WE ask (along with please don't ask us to STOP knocking).
Again, I bid you peace, dear Size, truly... and IF YOU TRULY WISH THEM... ears to hear, when the Spirit and the Bride say to YOU:
"Come, Sizemik! Take 'life's water'... FREE!"
May you hear that call, if you so wish to... and have the FAITH... to answer it when you do!
YOUR servant, as I am servant to ALL those of the Household of God, Israel, and those who go with... including those who LACK faith (right now)... and a slave of the Holy One OF Israel... JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH, and His Son and Christ,
SA
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unshackled
. . . I'll keep on knocking then.
Size...keep knocking but it may be Mohammed, instead of Jesus, that answers. He seems to be the popular brand on that half of the world. ;-)
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AGuest
Faith is not evidence. It is an unshakable, cherished belief in something that cannot be proven but is nevertheless taken to be absolutely true and beyond questioning. That different faiths contradict one another belies their legitimacy. All that remains is evidence.
Although many purport to know what faith is, dear Nick (again, the greatest of love and peace to you!)... as well as to possessing it... most of them are in error. Most also put such "faith" (belief/loyalty)... in something OTHER than God (although they BELIEVE they have faith in Him). But let me show you what I mean (please excuse my caps; they are not yelling, but only for emphasis - thank you!):
A man says he has "faith" in God. His concept of "God" is what he obtained from reading/studying/being told what was in... the Bible. Yet, he does not believe that God's Son, Christ, can/will actually speak to him... other than through the pages of "the Bible." Yet, IN that Bible, God... the One such man claims to have faith in... is recorded as saying, "This is my Son; LISTEN TO HIM." Not, "This is my Son, read the words he said."
That same man does not believe that when that Son is recorded to have said, "My sheep know my VOICE"... and "My sheep LISTEN to my VOICE," the Son meant such literally - NOT "My sheep know my voice which they 'hear' when they read the Bible."
The man has a problem here... because he does not REALLY believe what God... and the Son... were recorded to have said. And perhaps what is recorded is NOT true. But... he is not even willing to test it out to SEE if what was recorded is what they literally meant. In HIS mind... no... it CANNOT be. He believes it cannot be because OTHERS have told him that it cannot be... and he believes THEM.
THAT, dear one... is a LACK of faith. At least, in God. It is faith... in those others who told him something else.
Another man, though, hears a voice... and rather than dismiss it as delusion or illness... or perhaps that he is speaking to himself... calls out, "Who is this; who ARE you, Lord?" Even if he's not SURE he will receive an answer. Even if he's not sure he even HEARD anything. Still, he calls out. Why? Because of FAITH... that that Son DID rise from the dead... which is the EVIDENCE he needs to have FAITH that that Son is ALIVE... and, being alive, MUST be ABLE to speak to those who he wishes... otherwise, what is the POINT in BEING alive/coming back from the dead?? He realizes that perhaps he WON'T receive a response... or actually hear anything [further]... but he realizes that he has to SEE.
In response to his FAITH, therefore... which he based on EVIDENCE (Christ rising from the dead - which MANY saw, even if he didn't)... which faith he MANIFESTS (by calling out/responding to the call HE heard)... he hears... AGAIN. Which now is ADDITIONAL EVIDENCE... to HIM... that, indeed, that Son IS alive... AND speaks. And so, if every time he hears... HE responds... as a manifestation of HIS faith... and then hears MORE... such additional hearing is further EVIDENCE... to HIM... that what he believes (that Christ IS alive... and speaks... and is speaking to HIM)... is a REALITY. Even if no one else hears it!
Then he finds that others ALSO make this same profession... that what is happening to this man is occurring with THEM... that, too, is further EVIDENCE; he is not alone in his experience... nor in his faith.
A third man, however, will not even allow himself to entertain the POSSIBILITY... either because it has never occurred (yet) with him... OR... he has been SO tainted by the lies of OTHERS that he feels no other choice but to utterly REJECT the notion in full. Such a man not only will not respond to the call when it comes his way... he won't even recognize it when it does. Because he has already MADE UP HIS MIND... that it CAN'T, not only won't. Like the first man, then, he will believe himself to be delusional, sick, talking to himself, making it up, or what have you. Anything... and everything... except that PERHAPS... he was actually BEING called. Perhaps, only to later say, "Is THAT what that was?? Why didn't someone TELL me??"... although many "someones" tried to.
Because he will accept NOTHING... other than the call to be to his flesh. But this is because he truly misses the entire purpose... and manner: the flesh... is of no use, at all. It is the SPIRIT that can live on... the SPIRIT that is the true essence of man... and to the SPIRIT of a man that God, who IS A SPIRIT... CALLS. And so, it is with the SPIRIT... the man one is on the INSIDE... that one must listen so as to hear. Sure, the flesh can perceive the call, but the call is not TO the flesh... and so one perceives MORE... if one RESPONDS... with the man to whom the call is directed: the man on the INSIDE.
Once the man on the INSIDE gets that the call is to HIM... THEN he can DEMONSTRATE his faith... IN the One so calling him... via manifestations... of his FLESH (i.e., literally answering, doing, going, feeding, healing, helping others, etc.). It is the faith of the man on the INSIDE... that does the "WORKS" demonstrating that faith... by the man on the OUTSIDE. But the man on the INSIDE can manifest faith without utilizing the man on the outside; the man on the outside, however, cannot without the man on the INSIDE.
We are not merely our bodies, dear one... but what that body holds/contains: refusing to see this... or misunderstanding what it is and its origin and purpose... is what stands in the way of many's faith. Either they cannot see past the physical man... or they've created great myths as to the spiritual man (rather than seeing what is true about him).
And this is what is most disheartening for me, in light of all of the intelligence and whatnot of those who cannot see past the physical man: the limitations that that puts ON man. Man is SO much more than his physical body. SCIENCE should show us that. Our abilities over the beasts should show us that. Our empathy, compassion, and progress should show us that. Yet... we prefer to view ourselves as so limited. I truly do NOT get that. Because I have come to know that if we would just ALLOW ourselves to move past the physical man that we are... there would be MORE empathy, compassion, love... and progress. Unfortunately, such refusal keeps us where we are: not much higher than the beasts.
I hope this helps, dear one, and as always, bid you peace!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
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AGuest
Hmmmm... perhaps the editor isn't feeling well, today...
SA, on her own...
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PSacramento
Faith is not evidence. It is an unshakable, cherished belief in something that cannot be proven but is nevertheless taken to be absolutely true and beyond questioning. That different faiths contradict one another belies their legitimacy. All that remains is evidence.
No, faith is no evidence BUT it shoudl be based on evidence of soem sort, even personal revelation is evidence that leads to faith.
One just doesn't have faith with no evidence, one needs SOME sort of evidence from which faith is to develop.
I think the issue is one of PROOF, not evidence and for many they want, NEED proof and no amount of evidence will do ( Thomas is a perfect example).