Theological Arguments, Human Realities

by AllTimeJeff 161 Replies latest jw friends

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  Sulla

  Tec: Sulla, some (many, I believe) are drawn to the JW's at their door because of the message of unity, lack of war, and lack of hell doctrine. They're searching for truth, understanding that these things cannot BE, and then here comes a group that has none of these things.

  Well, like I said before, why not just look for your local Unitarian Univeralist church, then. Plenty of nice people and none of that war or hell stuff. What's not to like? I would think that pacifist, Universalist churches are a dime a dozen. But our folks didn't wind up there, did they? Instead, they chose the JWs and all the JW exotic beliefs. We have to have some sort of theory for that.

  Tec: People don't have to research every christian sect to see the hypocrisy of christian fighting/killing christian. Or to see leaders 'beating' their followers. They see it, think 'this' can't be the truth, and search for somewhere else that can be the truth.

  Which is merely to say that they actually believe that JWs are somehow better than the rest of humanity and not, therefore, prone to exactly the same limitations, temptations, and weaknesses as everybody else on the planet. There must be some word for that belief...

  Which is why we keep reading letters like Marvin Shimler (sp) keeps posting from these 60-something poor bastards who simply cannot understand how the organization could possibly turn on them merely for expressing their honest opinions about some problems they see. What are we supposed to think of some loser writing a heartfelt plea to be left alone: these groveling letters that include scriptural references and promises of respect and fealty. This last one he posted even had some guy try to disassociate himself without disassociating himself. Sheesh. You spend a lifetime acting as an enforcer for this bunch of thugs and imagine they're going to just let you do your own thing one day?

  How do we explain that? Who knows how many guys he's disfellowshipped -- lives he has seriously disrupted -- because these folks couldn't convince him they were sorry? Now, at the end of his life, he finds something he feels like he must assert and he thinks they're going to go easy on him? How do you explain that? I know how I explain it.
• 

  Sulla

  Jeff: I do not reject Christianity because of the Trinity.

  Of course not. You reject the Trinity because you reject Christianity. It's the same everywhere: if you accept that Jesus really was raised bodily and that his death really did save us, then the Trinity follows. Not easily or obviously, but inexorably.

  Jeff: I, as many here on the forum, became JW's in a flurry of teenage excitement and were baptized as minors. Speaking for me specifically, I was 13.

  Well, then, it wasn't much of a choice for you.

  Jeff: I agree that there is a difference when an adult who has never been exposed to the Witnesses agrees to become a JW. It was my experience with those that they in some way were emotionally damaged/fragile and were thus easy prey to the tactics of JW recruiting. Do I think that the majority are intellectually lazy? I think you underestimate the power of a cult in that case, esp when they influence a person to not consider outside sources of information. Arrogant? No. Some are for sure. But many are humble, scared, would rather gnaw their own arm off instead of knocking on a strangers door, and absolutely think they are doing it for Jehovah. That doesn't sound like arrogance to me.

  When I say "signal," I don't mean to suggest all JW converts are particularly arrogant and intellectually lazy. I mean to suggest that the idea of converting to the JWs has a special appeal for arrogant and lazy people; if you want to say that it also has special appeal for damaged or fragile people, I guess I wouldn't disagree.

  On the other hand, I don't see why one couldn't be both arrogant/lazy as well as fragile. I mean, we are talking about people who can't be bothered to go to a library to check out the date for the fall of Jerusalem. We are talking about people who willingly accept that the entire Christian project has been irredeemably corrupted by guys who are morally less than they themselves. We are talking about people who think they have secret knowledge about the End and that they were granted this knowledge specifically because of their moral superiority back in 1918. We are talking about people who tell strangers that they will die by the direct action of God unless they change their religion and become JWs.

  That does sound like arrogance to me.

  Jeff: Whether you realize it or not, you are implying that those who have rejected the Trinity are either/or intellectually lazy and arrogant. That is a ridiculous premise that should rejected out of hand.

  No, I don't think so. I think people reject the Trinity because they reject the Christian claims (Jesus was raised, his death saved us) and not because they are lazy and arrogant. What I think about those who would debate the Trinity is that most who reject it are not generally competent to have the discussion.
• 

  tec

  Well, like I said before, why not just look for your local Unitarian Univeralist church, then. Plenty of nice people and none of that war or hell stuff. What's not to like?

  Not everyone knows what's out there, you know. The JW's bring it to the door. (Are Universalists pacifists, even?) And I mentioned that the hypocrisy that can be seen in other denominations has turned people away, not just that they like something else better. Some are just looking for the truth.

  I would think that pacifist, Universalist churches are a dime a dozen.

  You would? I think they're pretty hard to find, actually. On the other hand, I see a Catholic or Protestant or Baptist or Lutheran or whatever every couple of blocks. I see more Mosques for that matter, too.

  But our folks didn't wind up there, did they? Instead, they chose the JWs and all the JW exotic beliefs. We have to have some sort of theory for that.

  My folks didn't wind up anywhere. Neither of them are religious at all. One believes in God and His Son (but without religion), and the other is more of a Deist.

  When I spoke of why an adult might choose to join the JW's, having no JW relatives or friends, I was speaking about myself. So I KNOW why I chose them, though I decided not to get baptized after all. Its not a theory for me.

  Which is merely to say that they actually believe that JWs are somehow better than the rest of humanity and not, therefore, prone to exactly the same limitations, temptations, and weaknesses as everybody else on the planet. There must be some word for that belief...

  "Better than" doesn't necessarily come into it. But its no different than many other Christian groups who claim to be or have the truth. They are also somehow "better than", to have found the truth, and there is something wrong with those others who can't see that truth.

  But you are right in that sense, that I did think they were better - I even began to think of them as better people -as in honest, trustworthy, humble, and chosen- and I wouldn't have hesitated to leave my kids with any of them, simply based on their being witnesses.

  I did not know them very well.

  It was trust though. Not arrogance. I didn't think I was better than them or anyone else... though after studying with them, I think I started to head down that route. Its one of the reasons I knew the religion was bad... for ME. I was becoming judgmental.

  I don't know how to respond to the rest of what you said. You seem to think that I am saying they ARE better than the rest. On the contrary, I don't think they are better than anyone else. Often worse, in how they treat others. Hypocrites, as well, for judging others for things that they, themselves, do.

  My only issue with what you posted was your assumption and generalization of why a person would join the JW's as an adult. Since you're speaking about someone like me.

  Peace,

  Tammy
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  tec

  It's the same everywhere: if you accept that Jesus really was raised bodily and that his death really did save us, then the Trinity follows. Not easily or obviously, but inexorably.

  I'm going to have to speak against that too. The trinity has not followed. Not for me. Not for many others who believe in Christ either, his resurrection, and his sacrifice. And I do understand a few different versions of the trinity. I'm not sure which one you're referring to though. Not that it matters. I believe in Christ. I follow Christ. I love Christ. I look to Christ. I listen to Christ. Isn't that what we are called to do?

  Peace,

  Tammy
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  jgnat

  Sulla, the first Council of Nicea did not establish the trinity but rather the divinity of Christ. I think the new testament thoroughly establishes his divinity. The trinity is a tougher sell and I do not see how this would naturally "follow".

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
• 

  jgnat

  Sulla, the first Council of Nicea did not establish the trinity but rather the divinity of Christ. I think the new testament thoroughly establishes his divinity. The trinity is a tougher sell and I do not see how this would naturally "follow".

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
• 

  AllTimeJeff

  Sulla, as a human being, I am disappointed in your answers. For all of your brains, you certainly lack heart. I will quote you directly from your last post to me, then I am off to bed.

  This is what I am disappointed in you Sulla.....

  I mean to suggest that the idea of converting to the JWs has a special appeal for arrogant and lazy people; if you want to say that it also has special appeal for damaged or fragile people, I guess I wouldn't disagree.

  I think people reject the Trinity because they reject the Christian claims (Jesus was raised, his death saved us) and not because they are lazy and arrogant. What I think about those who would debate the Trinity is that most who reject it are not generally competent to have the discussion.

  While it is clear that you ARE competent to have a discussion on the Trinity, Christianity, Jesus, etc, you are most certainly NOT competent enough to have a discussion on the subjects that Jesus (purportedly) seemed to be more interested in dealing with. Which was the forgiveness of sins, leaving the 99 to go after the 1 (regardless of their "competence") the condemnation of the Pharisees who were more interested in their knowledge of doctrine and theology as opposed to missing the entire point of helping the lowly. No wonder Jesus said that such ones "strained the gnat but gulped down the camel."

  Funny. I think when it comes to theology, most who are intellectually "competent" strain the gnat, but gulp down the camel.

  I think were Jesus here, he would like to have a word or two with you and Thomas Aquinas in a room. Hopefully, if Aquinas is all you think he is, he might agree with Jesus and tell you to get over yourself on theology, the trinity, and recognize that when it comes to spirituality and god, WE PEOPLE, WE HUMAN BEINGS, are way more important then your overly intellectualized theologies.

  As much as I detest what the leadership of JW's does and what it makes people do, I don't ever think that current JW's are less. I won't ever give up on them or anyone.

  How can anyone claim to believe in Jesus, and yet miss the point of his gospel? Jesus would prefer to be thought of as a quadrilateral being then to give license to ANY theology which distracts all "Christians" from actually acting like a "Christian."

  It simply misses the ULTIMATE point.
• 

  designs

  From one Cult into another bigger Cult 'how do you explain that'.
• 

  Sulla

  I don't know, Tec, sounds like the reason you aren't a JW is because you found them to be arrogant. Or maybe there is some other reason associating with them made you, as you put it, judgmental. They encouraged you somehow to look down on others, you say?

  Jgnat, I'm aware that Nicaea was focused on the divinity of Christ; subsequent Councils defined the relationship of the Spirit. However, Christian prayer and worship was Trinitarian in nature from the very start.

  AllTimeJeff, it shouldn't come as a surprise that I find myself in substantial disagreement with you. First, I don't think the gospels are as focused on the type of Jesus you think they are. Many have pointed out that the gospels are Passion narratives: it is the Passion that is the point of the gospels, the other information is there to tell us who it is that suffers the Passion. How many times do the gospels say that something happened so that you would believe Jesus is the son of God? or some similar comment. How do we miss the use of irony in Mark: only Jesus' enemies worship him, for example: the Roman soldiers mockingly worship Jesus after they whip him. Etc. & etc.

  So, I'm not convinced we can read the gospels the way you do, shearing off the claims about who Jesus is. The gospels were written primarily for the Christian community; these people had long before decided that the worship of Jesus was what they were about. So, if we walk away from an encounter with these books thining that Jesus was a nice, really spiritual guy, we are entirely missing the point of the writers. It's like reading Moby Dick and coming away thinking it was a story about a whale.

  I also think you are quite hasty in supposing I don't care about the "lowly." You certainly don't know what I give on a weekly basis. Also, and while I wouldn't speak of this except you've made an issue of it, I do give time to helping people who are not well-off. In June, I spent an entire day painting a house, clearing out a garden, and building a handicapped-accessable ramp for people who are elderly and unable to perform these tasks themselves. Tomorrow, I will spend all day working in a kitchen as part of our parish's fundraising efforts to provide need-based scholarships.

  I am absolutely aware that many other people, including some who read this, devote significantly more time and effort than I. I am, in fact, quite convinced that my level of volunteering is too low and should be considerably more than a day each quarter. But it's not nothing. And, given that I clawed my way up from no education or prospects (thanks to the JWs) to arrive at a reasonably good situation, I tend to put a premium on my free time. So, I'm selfish. And I am pretty certain that I am unmoved by the nicey-nice comments of some Jewish teacher from a couple thousand years back, especially when he was so prone to make stupid comments like 'turn the other cheek' and 'pick up your cross and follow me.' Seriously, who needs that shit?

  Oh. Well he is God, you say? And God himself suffered, died, and was buried not only for winners like me, but for losers like some old bastard who can't even afford to hire somebody to paint his house? The Lord of all things took flesh of the Virgin and became a man for some kid whose parents can't even afford to rent a place in a decent school district? Well, then, I guess I can spend a couple days sweating my ass off for them.

  Actually, I am called to do much more than that, it turns out. But it's a start, Jeff. It's a little, baby step. And it is taken because I accept the Christian claims about Jesus and the theological reflection that follows from those claims.
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  designs

  Impossible for God to suffer and die.