Theological Arguments, Human Realities

by AllTimeJeff 161 Replies latest jw friends

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  AllTimeJeff

  soft+gentle,

  I think one of the great tragedies of history is to learn how cheap life is. To this day, a woman in most parts of the world is subserviant, if not an outright slave to the man that owns her. The justification in many/most of these cases is the religion they all believe in.

  Those women, by the billions, are as important and equal to the men who abuse them, and WAY more important then the religious theology which keeps them and teaches them that they are substandard.

  One thing I strongly disagree with most organized religions today is that a caste system of sorts (for lack of a better phrase) puts the agenda of the religion, or the theology of the religion, above the needs of the people. Whether we want to admit this or not, theologies really do affect people and how they treat and view others! It is much much more then a simple intellectual exercise as to the nature of a divinity.

  So yeah, ALL of us are way more important then Jesus.

  Theology is cool for little cliques and clubs. But I think history attests very well to its overall value in our day to day life.
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  soft+gentle

  sulla

  very interesting - the idea of masks is also very Greek but it is Roman too ( the Romans kept masks of their dead male ancestors in their homes and the male heir was privilged to wear his father's mask at funerals) - perhaps the trinity doctrine is a fusion of Greek, Roman and Jewish theology although I don't mean any disrespect in saying this.
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  PSacramento

  Going on history alone what we find it the PEOPLE suck, regardless of where they live, what time period and under whatever infulence of whatever ideolgy.

  They lie, they manipulate, they cheat, they kill and destroy with almost erie gusto at times.

  Through out history when Man has seen himself as the center of things what has happened has been destruction, wars, famine, death.

  And when Man has put soemthing else as the center, things haven't feared much better either, LOL !

  Gand raping of women, infantcide, pilaging, destruction, these are things that ocur quite naturally to man, with very little need of "prompting" from an outside source.

  That we KNOW these things to be wrong is, given our history, quite amazing.
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  soft+gentle

  Jeff, you are an intelligent guy and I respect you enormously but I think Sulla's main point is that as jws and xjws we can be quite arrogant and dismissive of subjects we know nothing about simply because this is the way we have been taught to think. It is such a shame as there is a whole new world waiting to be discovered by us.
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  soft+gentle

  jeff here is a question for you

  you said

  soft+gentle,

  I think one of the great tragedies of history is to learn how cheap life is. To this day, a woman in most parts of the world is subserviant, if not an outright slave to the man that owns her. The justification in many/most of these cases is the religion they all believe in.

  Those women, by the billions, are as important and equal to the men who abuse them, and WAY more important then the religious theology which keeps them and teaches them that they are substandard

  How is the reasoning you are using here any different from that of jehovahs witnesses who teach that the world empire of false religion is responsible for mankinds's woes?
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  designs

  Sulla, you're fun. Keep genuflecting it suits you.
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  tec

  Tec,

  I don't doubt your experience for one minute. And I don't mean to say your experience was something other than what you say it was. And if you think I did say it, then I won't say it any more.

  I appreciate that Sulla. I just wanted to point out what happened with me because I don't think your conclusions are as 'general' as you might think them to be.

  Peace to you,

  Tammy
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  AllTimeJeff

  Hi soft+gentle. You asked after quoting me...

  How is the reasoning you are using here any different from that of jehovahs witnesses who teach that the world empire of false religion is responsible for mankinds's woes?

  What is the point of your question? My example pointed out how religion and theology keep practically all non males in the 2nd and 3rd world from being equals. Do you deny this?
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  Sulla

  Jeff, I'm sure you are tired of hearing me say you are engaging in simplistic and self-serving thinking. I know I'm tired you keep engaging in simplistic and self-serving thinking. And I am sensitive to the argument that it is easier for me to stop harping about it than it is for you to change the way you think and, therefore, that's the efficient solution. I'll take it under advisement.

  But, if we are going to complain about theology and religion causing inequality between the sexes in the third world, would we suppose that religion and theology are to credit for their relative equality in the first?

  No need to answer that, I think we already know what you'd say.

  Jeff: I do think one reason why [Christianity has become more liberal] is that we live in the west with liberal democracies, where all are allowed to follow the dictates of their conscience, and have the freedom to explore non Christian alternatives. The focus was no longer on the theology of the church, but on the autonomy of the individual.

  This is, again, drastically simplistic. Perhaps the reason the West has become the place where liberal democracies are is because of good theology. Or is the fact that liberal democracy has emerged where the civilization is Christian and not otherwise some sort of coincidence? So, it seems your thinking needs some refinement. On one hand, you want to say theology is pointless mental masturbation and on the other hand you want to say it has real (if uniformly harmful) effects. That's pretty sloppy. Moreover, your criticism of theology is, itself, based on unstated (and, dare I say, Christian) morality. Getting back to your complaint about the treatment of women, what makes you suppose they ought to be treated equally? Do we have some historical precedent for this? Actually, we mostly see exactly the opposite, don't we? And for perfectly good reasons: women are a valuable and scarce resource. It is natural to want to put tight controls on valuable and scarce resources: you don't let your car go wherever it wants without supervision, do you? One of the things you need before you can begin thinking that maybe women should have equal rights as men is the idea that all people are not means to some end, but are themselves valuable. Why in hell shouldn't we exploit the poor or disabled or weak? There is a Christian, theological, answer that I am aware of. I'm not so sure there are non-theological reasons.
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  botchtowersociety

  But, if we are going to complain about theology and religion causing inequality between the sexes in the third world, would we suppose that religion and theology are to credit for their relative equality in the first?

  Perhaps the reason the West has become the place where liberal democracies are is because of good theology. Or is the fact that liberal democracy has emerged where the civilization is Christian and not otherwise some sort of coincidence?

  Good comments, Sulla. Liberal democracy emerged first in Christian civilization. It is now imitated elsewhere with great success.

  The concept of liberal democracy developed in the minds of those that believed in the Christian God. John Locke greatly influenced the development of our American democracy, for example, and his concepts were rooted in the fact that all people are equal, because all people can comprehend God. Our civil rights were deemed "God given." Genesis 1:26, where we are all made in the image of God, and therefore equal.

  http://www.amazon.com/God-Locke-Equality-Christian-Foundations/dp/0521890578

  But it goes back much further. There are political roots going back to St. Augustine's magnum opus Civitas Dei..."City of God" where there is a sphere of Godly matters, and a sphere of secular matters. Christianity's main concern is the heavenly city, not the earthly one. This is the beginning of the idea of a secular state. In our liberal democracy's Constitution it reads: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

  Aquinas asserted that this "image of God" had a spiritual soul, endowed with free will and intellect. This grants human beings a special dignity which must be respected and not deliberately interfered with.

  Since, as Damascene states (De Fide Orthod. ii. 12), man is said to be made to God's image, in so far as the image implies an intelligent being endowed with free-will and self-movement: now that we have treated of the exemplar, i.e., God, and of those things which came forth from the power of God in accordance with His will; it remains for us to treat of His image, i.e., man, inasmuch as he too is the principle of his actions, as having free-will and control of his actions.

  http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2.htm

  So we have our Bill of Rights enshrining the free exercise of our individual wills in everything from speech, to assembly, to worship, and so on. It codifies equal treatment before the law, since we are all created equal

  In juxtaposition we have political movements that are not rooted in Christian theology--on the contrary. Marx's political ideology was explicity anti-Christian and Atheist. Christianity was the opium of the masses. There was no God. What kinds of political regimes did that system develop?

  The same is true of modern science. It only ever developed in Christian culture...and spread from there.

  The idea of an orderly Universe governed by laws came from the theological concept of an orderly giver of laws--God. That man could understand the laws of the Universe came from the idea that man could comprehend the mind of God, or at least improve his understanding over time. Both of these ideas: that the Universe is governed by law, and that man can find a way to make sense of it all, are at the foundation of modern science, and both stem from theological ideas.

  Jeff seems to buy into the conflict thesis narrative. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_thesis

  Theology is worthless? It's fruitage is bad?

  The fruitage of theology:

  We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

  Maybe Jeff hasn't thought outside the box yet.