Jack C., you are spot-on. It is one of the great ironies of the JW teachings that they teach a doctrine that is really only a good fit with Greek-style substance dualism. If they only knew...
after 14 years out i think ive finally found "the truth" reincarnation !
by looloo 28 Replies latest jw friends
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cantleave
Focus on living now, don't concern yourself with what happens afterwards - life is too short!
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ProdigalSon
Neither Jews or Christians believed that one would come back from the dead as anyone other than one was before they died.
Reincarnation does not say that you come back as someone else. Humans have an inner "Monad" that returns with each lifetime. It's like an IP address. You can't swap it with someone else.
So according to what Jesus said, Elijah and John the baptist were the same soul.
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PSacramento
Reincarnation does not say that you come back as someone else. Humans have an inner "Monad" that returns with each lifetime. It's like an IP address. You can't swap it with someone else.
Hindi reincarnation and buddhist reincarnation are not the samething, so which reincarnation are you talking about?
So according to what Jesus said, Elijah and John the baptist were the same soul.
Where did Jesus say that?
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ProdigalSon
Hindi reincarnation and buddhist reincarnation are not the samething, so which reincarnation are you talking about?
These two philosophies were closer together in antiquity, but the contemporary philosophies have diverged slightly. Hinduism teaches an inner "Atman" which would be the same as the Monad in Gnostic and Kabbalistic philosophy, which also teach death of the "personality". Contemporary Buddhism agrees with the death of the personality and also an evolving stream of consciousness. In my opinion, these varying philosophies can all be blended together very nicely, especially with what we are now learning about the human brain.
Where did Jesus say that?
(NIV) Matthew 17:11 Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.
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PSacramento
(NIV) Matthew 17:11 Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.
So, where did Jesus say that the spirit of Elijah was reincarnated in his cousin, John the Baptist?
You are interpretting the verse to suit what you want it to mean.
Not that no one else does that, LOL !
;)You will be hard pressed to find any Rabbi or Jewish scholar that sees any OT verses as indicating reincarnation as we know it to be.
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ProdigalSon
So, where did Jesus say that the spirit of Elijah was reincarnated in his cousin, John the Baptist?
You are interpretting the verse to suit what you want it to mean.
So what's your interpretation Psac? That Elijah "foreshadowed" John somehow, somewhere in the grand scheme of "God's Purpose For Mankind"?
Why should we have to guess? To me, and many others, it's about as straightforward as it can be. Jesus said Elijah was John. He didn't attach any qualifiers. I think it's you who is reading something else into it.
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PSacramento
So what's your interpretation Psac? That Elijah "foreshadowed" John somehow, somewhere in the grand scheme of "God's Purpose For Mankind"?
My interpretation is irrelevant, you need to focus on what a 1st century Jew would think when he heard those words.
First off:
- Yes, he was Elijah ( Matthew 11:13-14 ) - "For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14"And if you care to accept it, he himself is Elijah, who was to come."
- No, he was not Elijah ( John 1:19-21 ) - "And this is the witness of John, when the Jews sent to him priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, "Who are you?" 20And he confessed, and did not deny, and he confessed, "I am not the Christ." 21And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" And he *said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."
WHat does Luke say about this:
"Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your petition has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you will give him the name John. 14"And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15"For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine or liquor; and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, while yet in his mother’s womb. 16"And he will turn back many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God. 17"And it is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers back to the children, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous; so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord," ( Luke 1:13-17 ).
According to John, he didn't see himself as the incarnate Elijah but the prophecy regarding John was that he would be in the spirit and power of Elijah, NOT that he would BE Elijah, the incarnation of the ancient prophet.
If people's spirits were reincarnated how does one explain the widows Son brought back to life by Elijah? or Lazrus, brought back to life by Christ?
Then there is the minor issue of Elijah NOT dying and if he didn't die but was taken directly to Heaven, how can he be reincranted?
Of course there are mention of reincarnation in Jewish traditons outside the OT such as the Kabbalah Zohar.
Of course the writer of Hebrews didn't believe in reincarnation:
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, (Hebrews 9:27)
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PSacramento
It is quite possible that Jesus was speaking of a reincarnation cycle when he said that the wicked will go to eternal punishment but the righteous to eternal life.
In the OT, the book of Job actually has references against reincarnation and what may seem to be one for it:
"When a cloud vanishes, it is gone, So he who goes down to Sheol does not come up. "He will not return again to his house, Nor will his place know him anymore. (Job 7:9-10)
While still growing and uncut, they wither more quickly than grass. Such is the destiny of all who forget God; so perishes the hope of the godless. (Job 8:12-13)
Before I go-- and I shall not return-- To the land of darkness and deep shadow; (Job 10:21)
But man dies and is laid low; he breathes his last and is no more. As water disappears from the sea or a riverbed becomes parched and dry, so man lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, men will not awake or be roused from their sleep. (Job 14:10-12)
"For when a few years are past, I shall go the way of no return. (Job 16:22)Job does beleive in the resurection though:
I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end He will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; (Job 19:26)
And for it:
'He has redeemed my soul from going to the pit, And my life shall see the light.' Behold, God does all these oftentimes with men, To bring back his soul from the pit, That he may be enlightened with the light of life. (Job 33:28-30)
The issue with that verse is that it was said by Elihu, who was shown to be mistaken about other things ( liek God jusding Job as unrighteous).
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MrFreeze
That's something I wouldn't mind believing in but I just don't see it being true.