EP...we may need to agree to disagree...but I would like to say that I appreciate the fact that you have stopped replying to me like I am stupid.
So thank you...and thank you for the discussion...it certainly got me thinking about things
The Value of a Godless World
by cantleave 109 Replies latest jw friends
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still thinking
dgp...those pictures are quite unnerving to say the least.
The child with the gun...the child soldier...the similarity with watchtower pictures....
And the picture with him surrounded by children reminds me of...
Luke 18:16 But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these
He seems to be depicted as some sort of Messiah/saviour or even God.
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tec
He seems to be depicted as some sort of Messiah/saviour or even God.
He is (or was) that over there. Worshipped as a type of god. The Dear Leader.
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still thinking
tec...So...really we could never have a godless world...because SOMEONE would step up and claim the position
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dgp
Still Thinking: The Dear Leader finished his earthly course. However, he continues to be "The Eternal President", according to the Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Il_Sung).
By the way,
The exact history of Kim's family is somewhat obscure. The family was neither very poor nor comfortably well-off, but was always a step away from poverty. Kim claims he was raised in a Presbyterian family, that his maternal grandfather was a Protestant minister, that his father had gone to a missionary school and was an elder in the Presbyterian Church, and that his parents were very active in the religious community. [ 7 ] [ 8 ] [ 9 ] According to the official version, Kim’s family participated in anti-Japanese activities and in 1920 they fled to Manchuria. The more objective view seems to be that his family settled in Manchuria like many Koreans at the time to escape famine. Nonetheless, Kim’s parents apparently did play a minor role in some activist groups, though whether their cause was missionary, nationalist, or both is unclear. [ 10 ] [ 11 ]
At some point Kim also abandoned Christianity and became an atheist. [citation needed]
Did he really become an atheist, or did he feel about becoming a God himself?
There are over 500 statues of Kim Il-sung in North Korea. [ 38 ] The most prominent are at Kim Il-sung University, Kim Il-sung Stadium, Kim Il-sung Square, Kim Il-sung Bridge and the Immortal Statue of Kim Il-sung. Some statues have been reported to have been destroyed by explosions or damaged with graffiti by North Korean activists. [ 39 ]Yeong Saeng ("eternal life") monuments have been erected throughout the country, each dedicated to the departed "Eternal Leader", at which citizens are expected to pay annual tribute on his official birthday or the commemoration of his death. [ 40 ] It is also traditional that North Korean newly weds, immediately after their wedding, go to the nearest statue of Kim Il Sung to lay flowers at his feet.
Kim Il-sung's image is prominent in places associated with public transportation, hanging at every North Korean train station and airport. [ 38 ] It is also placed prominently at the border crossings between China and North Korea. His portrait is featured on the front of all recent North Korean won banknotes. Thousands of gifts to Kim Il-sung from foreign leaders are housed in the International Friendship Exhibition.
I believe that the idea of it being impossible to have morals without a God is the fruit of circular reasoning. Whoever believes that we need a God to tell us what is moral and what is not, so that we have "a light" (sometimes a "new light") to guide us, need to prove that such a god exists, to the exclusion of all others. Otherwise, there is no one to tell us what is right and what is wrong. If I accept the idea that we need God to tell me what is correct, then I am accepting there is a God. And that is something that needs to be proven, NOT disproven.
Lest we forget that, the idea that there is only one God, and that one God is YHWH, who sent his son to save us, is a latecomer in history. Not even Christians deny that. If you look at this matter from the perspective of the Chinese (or the Aztecs, or the Africans, or Hindus, or Vikings, Celtic druids, Egyptians), the first thing we would need to accept is that such an only God exists after all. And we need to think that the morals we have been living in accordance with is always wrong, because it didn't come from YHWH but from human reasoning.
If you are to follow the dictates of that God, you also need to ask yourself what is the criterion used to determine what is good and what is wrong. Does "good" mean "good for God" or "good for man"? God being different from us, what is convenient to him will not necessarily be convenient for us. And we cannot really rely on his good judgment. Wasn't it he, according to Christians, who forbade Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but also the creator of the damned tree? Would you trust this guy to really know what is best for you?
And then, what happens when the Bible is silent about something? What does the Bible say about stem cells, for example? Or about euthanasia? How do we know what is right and what is wrong in that regard? Religious people will say we can use the Bible to derive the principles we need. So, is human reasoning involved here, or not?
What about slavery? What does the Bible say about slavery? Did it get condemned? Was slavery a good thing?
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still thinking
interesting points dgp...I don't have time to fully reply right now...And I think I probably need time to re read what you have posted so I understand properly what you are saying.
Just from your last comment though...I have had the same issue with a God who creates only to destroy and condem. But I no longer believe that the Jehovah God is Jesus's God or father. He describes his God as loving...and showed us...not told us...how to behave towards one another.
If we actually followed what he DID...the world WOULD be a much better place. Unfortunately, I think people like to twist things to support their control of other people...and then THEY call themselves christians...giving God and Christ a bad name. Christ himself never earned that reputation...not from my point of view anyway.
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dgp
Still Thinking: Please read the book of Job. The man had done nothing wrong. But YHWH and Satan agreed to screw Job just so YHWH would win a bet. Would you trust this guy to tell you what is right and what is wrong?
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still thinking
No...thats why I no longer believe that YHWH is the god that Jesus is talking about...I know the story of Job...That god is not my god.
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PSacramento
Job is a "parable" story, not an actual historical event story and it is recognized as such by pretty much all biblicla scholars.
Job has MANY lessons, the one that makes me laugh the most is "Satan" thinking he can win a bet with an Omniscient God that KNOWS how it will end, LOL !
Job is a lesson in humilty, a lesson in faith, a lesson about NOT taking what other people tell you as "fact" and sticking to what you "know" ( Job knw he didn't do anything that offended God no matter howm much his friends said he had), but it is also a lesson in understanding that God does things that we really have no idea why or can barely comprehend.
Like an infant that doesn't realise why Dad doesn't let him put the fork in the electrical outlet.
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dgp
Job has MANY lessons, the one that makes me laugh the most is "Satan" thinking he can win a bet with an Omniscient God that KNOWS how it will end, LOL !
Precisely my point (actually José Saramago's, in "Cain"). YHWH knows that Satan isn't going to win, yet
- he kills all of Job's children
- he takes away all the riches (killing animals and servants in the process)
- he gives Job a disease
And all this is just to prove what he already knew! By the way, so much for doing God's will and enjoying his blessings. He might take them away in a stupid bet.
I wonder if the movie "Trading Places", where Dan Aykroyd and Eddie Murphy are the subjects of a similar bet, was inspired in the book of Job.
I'm sure many a Bible scholar knows that the Book of Job isn't real. What's more, there are scholars who hold that much of it just wasn't so. Are we expected to base our morals in tales, then?