The Value of a Godless World

by cantleave 109 Replies latest jw friends

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  still thinking

  Bosnia: The United Nations, human trafficking and prostitution

  By Tony Robson
  21 August 2002

  There is mounting evidence that the United Nations has carried out a cover-up of the role played by its personnel in human trafficking and prostitution in Bosnia—a trade that has grown astronomically since the establishment of the Western protectorate seven years ago.

  An American woman who served with the International Police Task Force (IPTF) in Bosnia recently won a case of unfair dismissal against a US State Department sub-contractor, after she was sacked for reporting an alleged prostitution racket involving other serving officers.

  Kathryn Bolkovac was an employee of DynCorp Technical Services, one of the US government’s top 25 service providers with 23,000 employees worldwide. In Bosnia DynCorp provides maintenance support for the US military, as well as recruiting American officers for the international police force through its UK subsidiary, DynCorp Aerospace Operations Ltd. DynCorp has earned $1 billion since 1995 for providing maintenance to the US military worldwide. The contract to provide recruitment for the IPTF is valued at $15 million.

  The case against DynCorp Aerospace Operations Ltd was brought under the UK Public Interest Disclosure legislation, known as the “whistleblowers charter”, which protects employees who make disclosures about malpractice within their company. Bolkovac had been posted to Sarajevo in 1999 to investigate traffic in young women from Eastern Europe who were forced into prostitution.

  “When I started collecting evidence from the victims of sex-trafficking, it was clear that a number of UN officers were involved from several different countries, including quite a few from Britain,” she said. “I was shocked, appalled and disgusted. They were supposed to be over there to help, but they were committing crimes themselves. But when I told the supervisors they didn’t want to know.”

  http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/aug2002/bosn-a21.shtml

  if you would like to know more about this the full story is on the link above
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  EntirelyPossible

  I have used YOUR OWN examples....I have NOT used my own...

  No you didn't, at all. You keep suggesting that because these things exists that the world is getting worse. Let's take your first failed attempt to prove me wrong.

  First, you need to understand that facts aren't necessarily factual evidence. You are attempting to prove the world is WORSE that it was at other points in history, so you will need to show how many slaves as a percentage of the population existed at various times and show that it's worse today. So, given that every nation on the world has outlawed slavery, you may have trouble doing that. However, presuming you can, let's just pick a country, say, Ethiopia. I picked it since you clearly indicated earlier that you think I like looking through Rose colored glasses as I live the U.S. and I have no clue how things are in the rest of the world.

  In the 1930s there were an estimated 2 million slaved out of an estimated population of 12 million people, 16% of the population.

  How many people are slaves today? Estimates run between 12 and 27 million, so let's split the difference and go with 16.5 million. According to the CIA there are an estimated 1 million slaves in the US alone, that leaves 15.5 million. That's 18% of the population of Ethiopia.

  For Ethiopia to be worse, every single person that is enslaved today would have to be a slave in Ethiopia. Since that is clearly not the case, it is clear that slavery in Ethiopia has become drastically reduced due to evolved morality in the population at large. The same is true for the United States.

  So, thank you for using my example. It clearly illustrates that just making a statement and dropping raw numbers is insufficient. It is important to understand the context and meaning of numbers and draw conclusions from that.

  If you wish to continue the debate, please feel free. However, understand that what you say will be subjected to a "Does it make sense" test. Math may be involved. You will have to understand the numbers you through out and their current, historical and statistical relevance. In other words, you will have to PROVE your point, not just through out raw numbers and an opinion.
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  still thinking

  PROBLEM IDENTIFYING SLAVERY

  Another issue with 21st century slavery is it is easy to lose the word "slavery" in the linguistic technicality of what is and what isnt not slavery. The lines are blurred and in some cases it is hard to determine if it is a human rights issue or a labor rights issue: A case of bad labor rights reagrding how people are treated by their employers. Does it stop being slavery if someone is paid $1 a week? And what is the definition of paid , as payment can be in exchange for food and board. Then the only consideration is " freedom ," but freedom in itself is problematic. Are you free to leave your masters home when you have no family, shelter or security outside of their walls? Clearly people can leave but by doing so they put themselves in greater harm. So again "freedom" is a matter of perspective.

  ---

  On the basis of this...you may need to consider adding in Unicefs figures of An estimated 158 million children aged 5-14 are engaged in child labour.

  The sad reality of this beautiful world that we live in, is that it is anything but beautiful for most of the earth’s inhabitants. People cut out a near pointless existence without any hope of escaping their misery.

  They are victims of their own impoverished conditions bounded by survival above pride. In India, families and husbands sell their women folk as prostitutes to escape debt, a debt, which incurs deafening interest rates in the hand of money-sharks. Sometimes entire families are committed to pay off these debts, which actually appreciate as opposed to depreciate. Lack of voice, lack of education and lack of food means these people have to accept their condition and the debt burden is unquestionably inherited from generation to generation.

  How do you become a 21st century slave? When you have no money, you are at the whims and wishes of others. Poverty creates 21st century slavery without exception. Western societies destructive policies such as the free trade agreements mean that local economies are destroyed with an influx of cheap low quality products. The local economies are ruined in the process leaving many out of work and desperate. The free market allows them to set-up their factories on foreign soil with promises of employment for tax exemptions. The aim of these companies is literally to achieve a near slavery condition by paying labourers as little as they possible can for maximum work. When cheaper labour markets come into being, companies pack-up and move on leaving thousands unemployed

  Would you like to add these people into your statistics?

  Remind me again how we are evolving better morals.

  Yes I agree with you that on the surface, morals do appear to be changing/evolving for the better. This would be the perception of most people in western society (a small percentage of the worlds population). However, looking at the information presented and available, slavery is not a diminishing problem/practice. Therefore it is difficult to accept that morals are improving, and this issue of slavery is just one moral subject that we are considering....

  We could also look at murder rates, child abuse (in homes), divorce rates and the effect it has on society in general, alcoholism, drug abuse and gambling, work related theft, burglery rates, fraud rates....etc...it is a never ending list.

  If we truly look around, take off the blinkers, and open our eyes to what is really happening, it is clear to see that morals aren't changing for the better, because if this were the case these moral issues wouldn't exist in any manipulated, statistical number at all.
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  EntirelyPossible

  The sad reality of this beautiful world that we live in, is that it is anything but beautiful for most of the earth’s inhabitants.

  Qualify that. There are almost 8 billion people on this planet. What means beautiful? Being alive? Being rich? Having enough to enough to eat? Attending church? Going to a death metal concert? Having 500 friends on Facebook? Having no one bother you on facebook? Making sure your kids can get into an Ivy League? Playing UNO with your kids and making sure they simply have a choice?

  The sad reality is that you can't quantify what a beautiful life is for 100 random people you pass on the street, much less for 8 billion people. And you certainly can't quantify it as NOT beautiful for MOST of them. Subjective argument summarily rejected.

  On the basis of this...you may need to consider adding in Unicefs figures of An estimated 158 million children aged 5-14 are engaged in child labour.

  Ah, well then certainly we can. If you want to play those numbers, them simply go fetch the population numbers and estimated number of children in child labor for the world for the past 200 years and tell if the percentage of children in child labor as compared to population is higher or lower. I told you math would be involved. Otherwise you are just spouting numbers without context and relevence.

  Would you like to add these people into your statistics?

  Sure you can, but since you want to add them in, you can gather the data and then normalize for population changes and adding in a new category. You do know how to normalize data to make it relavent, right? You do know that in order to make a point and have a valid argument you need to do that, right? Otherwise it just seems like you are desperately grasping at straws to inflate your numbers in the modern world while ignoring the historical world to deflate those to bolster your claims.

  Please, feel free to do so.

  Remind me again how we are evolving better morals.

  Per capita slavery is down drastically, women, in greater numbers per capita all over the world now are no longer viewed as property, can vote, own business, child labor per capita is down, disease research is both governmentally and philantropically funded, due to higher sense of morals to help people, once fatal diseases are eradicated in large parts of the world. Not all, of course, but it's better. Not worse.

  However, looking at the information presented and available, slavery is not a diminishing problem/practice. Therefore it is difficult to accept that morals are improving, and this issue of slavery is just one moral subject that we are considering....

  All it proves is that you suck at math. All of the people estimated to be in slavery today is roughly equal, per capita, to the slaves in ONE country in Africa just 70 years ago. This is why we say better as opposed to fixed.

  If we truly look around, take off the blinkers, and open our eyes to what is really happening, it is clear to see that morals aren't changing for the better, because if this were the case these moral issues wouldn't exist in any manipulated, statistical number at all.

  No, that's not clear at all. Civilization and society at large working to, and actually improving conditions for people, does not mean that all places and people will be perfect all the time. Most people agree that murder is wrong, yet murders still occur.

  In your world, if 50 years ago, if there were 5 murders per 1000 people per year and today there is 0.5 murders per 1000 people per year, things aren't better because there is still roughly a single murder every 2 years.

  There will always be bad people. Society at large and individual people CAN evolve better morals, but that doesn't in any way mean there won't still be bad people that do bad things.

  All you are proving is that you really don't understand math, statistice or sociological studies.
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  EntirelyPossible

  BTW, it's amusing that you tried to move the goalposts. We were talking about slavery and human trafficking and when the numbers proved you wrong, you magically wanted to add in 158 million people in an entirely different category.

  You can move the goalposts like that if you like, but you are going to have to do the work to move the posts. Do the research, tell me if per capita it's better or worse than the past 2 centuries.

  I am sure you won't, but don't for one second think your clumsy attempt to change the game midstream wasn't noticed. Derp.
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  still thinking

  EP...I did not move any goalposts...You were talking human trafficking...I was talking slavery which includes everything that falls into that category including child slavery...or if you prefer the term...'child labour'...sounds a bit nicer doesn't it?

  While we are at it...I would also include Child soldiers in the slavery category...

  Under international law, the participation of children under 18 in armed conflict is generally prohibited, and the recruitment and use of children under 15 is a war crime. Yet worldwide, hundreds of thousands of children are recruited into government armed forces, paramilitaries, civil militia and a variety of other armed groups. Often they are abducted at school, on the streets or at home. Others enlist "voluntarily", usually because they see few alternatives.

  Such children are robbed of their childhood and exposed to terrible dangers and to psychological and physical suffering. They are placed in combat situations, used as spies, messengers, porters, servants or to lay or clear landmines. Girls in particular are at risk of rape and sexual abuse.

  If you want to play those numbers, them simply go fetch the population numbers

  I am not an animal EP...I don't intend to 'go fetch' anything.
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  still thinking

  I don't see how using your statistics achieves anything...

  Lets say we had 500 road deaths last year...and this year that number dropped to 450...statistically that is an improvement...but is it really? We still had 450 road deaths this year. Go and tell their relatives that it's an improvement...

  Does playing with numbers (as you refer to it) seriously show the actual 'value' of improvement? Or are they just statistics?

  As I said before...on the face of it the world seems a better place...Govenments say "no" to slavery...but if that is 'real' why does slavery still occur? It occurs because what people "say" and what people "do" are often two different things...What you see on the surface is only the tip of the iceberg...

  How many people are slaves today? Estimates run between 12 and 27 million, so let's split the difference and go with 16.5 million

  Let's not 'split the difference'...these are human lives we are talking about...not just numbers...it's not a maths game...that game is played to show how wonderful the world is becoming....lets just say when the world has eradicated any form of slavery...then you can make your claim by proving that our evolving morals are improving. Until then I will admit that maybe it is not worse...but you certainly can't prove that it is better.

  As a side note...would you like to include the JW's in that number...not the faithful and discreet slave...but the other ones...you know..the ones beating the streets and slaving for nothing...not only are they not paid for their labour...they actually pay their masters for the privelage of working for them......how many are there now?...add them in while you're at it.
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  still thinking

  Surely you must realise you've shot your own argument down in flames on this page.

  Absolutely not. I tried being reasonable, still thinking decided to not only be willfully stupid but negative Nancy. She was forwarned. Making fun of someone for being willfully stupid after warning them you will is a sign of an evolved moral code. Attempts at education, then a warning of next action, then keeping my word.

  Not really any different than having to discipline a small child.

  I have just really looked at what you wrote here.

  I can see why you form the arguments that you do. Why you need to play with statistics.

  Thinking that you are so superior to another person that YOU think that that is morals....that self induced superiority gives you the right to claim that YOU are educating someone else....and then if they don't listen to YOU they need to be disciplined.

  If you cannot see that that behaviour is similar to the attitude that feeds slavery then there really is no point in this discussion. Although I had that feeling already after your display of 'discipline' earlier.

  God help the children in this world if this is the type of discipline that is metered out to them.

  Now by all means...begin to throw your toys of of the cot like you did earlier...I am not listening to you...I see no 'value' in it.
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  PSacramento

  Wow, this thread has taken an interesting turn...

  Look, regardless of how we may feel about God or that God doesn't exist, it seems to me that the core is Man.

  If there is NO GOD then we have lived all this time in a godless world already, right?

  Then what we have, good and bad, are from US.

  So, to reply to the orignal OP:

  Yes, there is a value in a world without God.

  What that VALUE is, however, depends on MAN.

  If man is no more than an "evolved mammal" then there is no reason to see Man as anything more than just another "dominate species" in a given period of time onm this Planet.
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  THE GLADIATOR

  "Yes, there is a value in a world without God.

  What that VALUE is, however, depends on MAN.

  If man is no more than an "evolved mammal" then there is no reason to see Man as anything more than just another "dominate species" in a given period of time on this Planet."

  That about sums up it up for me! I would like to have found a deeper meaning and purpose to life and believe that love is the driving force behind life but alas I see no evidence that it works that way. Sad but true - I really am that shallow.