I know that this is my third post on this, but I just read the Salon.com article. It sounds to me like somebody is trying to get rich off of poor Cassie Bernhall's death. That's sad. Using fear tactics to try to turn people to God. That sounds like the JW brand of Christianity.
A sickening example of religious vampirism
by expatbrit 80 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
dickelentz
As the author of the play, perhaps I can address some of your comments and questions.
"It's Not Too Late" does not portray life as "christians vs atheists". In fact, the play points out that we're all imperfect. There is not one person that can call themselves rightious. We are all fallen creatures that fall quite short of God's standards. God does not condemn us for our sin but rather offers redemption from our fallen nature.
We have a choice about God's offer of salvation. We can accept God's love and the gift of salvation He offers. Or, we can reject it. But whatever choice we make, IT WILL AFFECT OUR LIVES. It will also affect where we spend eternity.
The play points out very clearly that God was trying to reach out to "Jason" (the killer) to save Jason from himself. Jason's choice was to reject God and instead take his own path in life. That choice resulted in Jason giving in to his anger. Jason's anger eventually consumed him. The result was tragic.
Even up to the last minute, Jason had a choice to take a different path in life. God continually tried to reach out to him to help him find a better way. Jason's response was to say "no" to God.
Rejection of God doesn't often end with this type of tragedy. But rejection of God always results in separation from God. This frequently leads to difficult and somtimes tragic consequences. But what's worse, if we die separated from God, it is impossible to remedy the situation. There is no second chance. The Bible clearly teaches that if we die separated from God, we will spend eternity apart from Him.
Fortunately, God has a remedy. Jesus' death on the cross paid the penalty for our sins. By accepting this "remedy", our relationship to God can be restored. Once restored, we will spend the rest of our lives as well as eternity with God.
That's what the play is about. God is trying to reach out to all of us every minute of every day. We have the choice whether to accept God's love or to reject it. Whatever choice we make will affect our lives. It's too late for some to take a different path in life (Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris, for example). But it's not too late for the rest of us.
By the way, the website (hometown.aol.com/dickelentz) does have a performance history page. If you are interested in seeing the play, you'll find some links to groups performing it. It will be performed in Dublin, CA this week.
God truly loves all of us. God is also reaching out to all of us to redeem us from the consequences of our fallen nature.
-
expatbrit
Dickelentz:
Your posting is the standard fundamentalist cocktail of manipulative fear and guilt. It consists of entirely unprovable subjective statements. Your referrals to the bible are pointless, since the bible is demonstrably inaccurate; just one of many propagandistic/apologistic productions of an ancient nation.
In short, your post is a statement of your opinion. What myself and others find sickening is not your opinions or your faith, but your methods of trying to convince others of the necessity of conforming to these. You have taken a tragedy unrelated to Christianity or religion, and capitalised upon it with inaccuracy and insinuation, attempting to force the message that those who "reject God", as you put it, are more susceptible to carry out these types of crimes. Your message that our choice whether to "accept God" will lead to eternal consequences is fear-based blackmail, nothing more.
Regarding Cassie Bernall, here are two excellent essays on the subject, presenting slightly different points of view. Bolding is mine:
Belief, Truth, and the Columbine Tragedy
September 28, 1999
by Richard C. Carrier"Cassie Bernall, hailed as a martyr in the Columbine High School massacre for professing her belief in God before she was shot dead, may never have had such an exchange with her killer," opened the September 25 Los Angeles Times (Home Edition, A:15). Yet the story of her suicidal confession has led to a revival among Christian teenagers, according to the Denver Rocky Mountain News (September 10, 1999, 4A), with prayer clubs growing in numbers and members all across the state and the country. She Said Yes: the Unlikely Martyrdom of Cassie Bernall, her mother's account of her own daughter's transformation from a disturbed teen with suicidal and murderous thoughts to a "Good Christian," has sold hundreds of thousands of copies (it sold 200,000 copies in its first two weeks alone).
Nevertheless, the Jefferson County sheriff's department has canvassed the details and found that the story is not likely to have transpired as it is being told, and believed, by Christians everywhere. The only report of her martyrdom in the April 20 massacre at Columbine High School comes from a few students whose accounts conflict in important details, and who were not in fact eye-witnesses of the event (they only claim to have heard the exchange while hiding under a table). And the one surviving eye-witness of Cassie's death--a girl sitting right beside her when she died--gives a decidedly different account of what happened. Furthermore, there is actually a story about another girl which sounds very similar--except the outcome was entirely different: after answering "yes," the killer spared her, although she was already badly wounded and bleeding at the time. She recovered.
The fullest account of the new evidence appears in the Denver Rocky Mountain News (September 24, 1999, 5A). The only eyewitness, Emily Wyant, 16, reports that she and Cassie, 17, were alone, studying together in the back of the library, and that she hid with her under the table when the shooting began. At that point, Cassie began praying out loud. According to Emily, "She was saying, 'Dear God. Dear God. Why is this happening? I just want to go home,'." Emily hushed her, saying "I know. We all want to get out of here." Emily believes that Cassie's loud praying may have drawn the gunman to them (they were, after all, all the way in the back). As the Denver Rocky Mountain News reports, "All of a sudden, [Dylan Klebold] slammed the top of their table, said 'Peekaboo,' and looked under the table at both girls." Emily says he immediately looked at Cassie and shot her, without any words exchanged. Then he turned to Emily, but was suddenly called away by Eric Harris, Klebold's accomplice. As Emily heard him, Harris said to Klebold "Hey, there's a n----- over here."' The two of them then shot to death Isaiah Shoels, a young black teen.
The sheriff's investigators have examined the more popular "martyr" account given by Craig Scott, and found that he had only heard the ''Yes'' comment and "recognized the voice as Cassie Bernall's. He did not actually see the individuals involved," reports the Denver Rocky Mountain News. In fact, when they questioned him about where he heard the voice, Scott pointed to the table where Valeen Schnurr was hiding, not Bernall. Other witnesses report that in fact Schnurr was the one asked if she believed in God and said "yes." She had already been shot multiple times and was also praying out loud, no doubt fearing that she was bleeding to death, when Klebold asked the question. But unlike the story we have been hearing, when he heard Schnurr's answer, he decided not to shoot her, and she lived.
This gives us a very different picture of the killers. As Jefferson County sheriff's investigator Kate Battan says, having reviewed all the evidence, including the diaries of Harris and Klebold, the killers "were driven by the desire for fame, not a particular hatred for jocks, minorities or Christians" (The Denver Post, September 23, 1999, 2nd ed., B-01). Apparently, they wrote that Hitler did not go far enough in singling out certain groups, but they felt he should have destroyed the whole human race. They also threatened to return as ghosts to haunt anyone who tried to blame their massacre on anything or anyone but themselves. Repeatedly, fame was their claimed motive. There is no clear evidence of any kind that they were atheists, but they clearly toyed with Neo-Nazi culture and were racist enough to disparage, single out, and kill a black student for apparently no other reason than his skin color--but if the account of Schnurr's conversation with Klebold is correct, he was prepared to spare a confessed Christian, not to kill one.
Now that the story of Cassie's martyrdom has essentially been blown apart, the Bernall family is trying to find a safe spiritual middle ground. In the words of Misty Bernall's publisher, Chris Zimmerman, "We don't feel that this discussion . . . takes anything away from the crux of Cassie's story," for "This is a book about a troubled American teen-ager who changed. She changed to the extent that she was ready to face the challenges of her life, and her death, with confidence" (Denver Rocky Mountain News, September 24, 1999, 5A), although Emily's account makes us wonder if Cassie really had such fortitude in the face of death.
To an atheist, the irrational behavior of Cassie (praying out loud to a God whom she already believed could hear her even if she prayed quietly in her mind) appears as a sad example of how religion can indeed be bad for you--and others. After all, Emily's life was only spared by the combination of chance and the killers' racism. Had it not been for the unfortunate sighting of Shoels, Cassie's behavior would have been partly responsible for Emily's death. It was already partly responsible for her own. Strangely, Christians are praising what amounts to suicidal behavior, instead of teaching their children something much more useful: when huddling among the hunted, either stand and fight, or hide and shut up.
It must be said, however, that Cassie's mother did not hide the fact that there were different accounts of what happened, and her book's focus was almost entirely on her daughter's transformation, not her murder. Nevertheless, several still refuse to believe it isn't true. One of those who reported the exchange originally, Joshua Lapp, although also not an eye-witness, still insists upon his account: ''She said it, plain and simple.'' It clearly does not take much to make someone into a confirmed believer in an inspiring story, even one that isn't true. The irony should not be lost on us that this kind of distortion and denial of the evidence could very well have been instrumental in the rise of the Christian faith, as inspiring, and perhaps not entirely true accounts of the death of Jesus were circulated.
[Richard Carrier is feedback editor for the Secular Web and Ph.D. candidate specializing in ancient Roman history at Columbia University.]
Irrational Behavior? Columbine Revisited
Expatbrit
October 1, 1999
By Stephen R. WelchI read with great interest Mr. Carrier's article describing the latest developments in the Columbine story. Given what they experienced, it's no surprise that survivors' accounts of the massacre are confused or contradictory. And given the urgent need of the community to salvage meaning from a largely meaningless tragedy, it's no surprise that the myth of Cassie Bernall's "martyrdom" was so eagerly embraced. That the myth would be deflated by fact was inevitable, and I appreciate Mr. Carrier for bringing these developments to our attention. Living only miles from the proposed site for a school to train a new "Christian Vanguard" (see the Sept. 26 posting on the II News Wire), I'm relieved to see that reasoned inquiry-- elsewhere in the country, at least-- has not been altogether abandoned. It's also heartening to see that organs of the media, having participated in promoting the myth, do not now balk at debunking it.
I must disagree, however, with Mr. Carrier's characterization of Cassie Bernall. For one, I cannot find fault with her "irrational behavior." Her cries of "My God, my God," were more likely exclamations of shock and fear than supplications to her deity. Under moments of outrage or stress I myself sometimes shout the words "Jesus Christ" (occasionally garnished for emphasis), a wholly useless exercise for an avowed apostate. But that really isn't the point. Having the tranquility of our day unexpectedly violated with the blast of pipe bombs and the spectacle of our friends getting blown away around us, any one of us could be expected to shout, cry, or lose control of our bodies. Irrational? Of course, but so what. And if Cassie was praying to her god? In that case, we shouldn't accuse her of acting irrationally--if she sincerely believed in such a being, praying to it would not have been an unreasonable thing to do under the circumstances. Prayer is the perk she bought with her faith, so let her have it. Whatever intentions were behind Cassie's last words, it's unlikely that she afforded much more than the desperate wish to simply "go home" to safety. No doubt her schoolmates had similar thoughts during those moments.
While I agree that religion is not "good for you," I object to Mr. Carrier's suggestion that there is any special lesson to be drawn here by atheists. This sort of rhetoric has the whiff of righteousness about it, and resonates too closely with the reactionary "I-told-you-so" of those who are quick to blame the massacre (and everything else bad in the world) on the dearth of faith. And it is disingenuous, I believe, to characterize Cassie's behavior as "suicidal," even if she had in fact died a "martyr." If the story was reversed--that is, one of the students had instead been asked, "do you believe in evolution?" and was shot after saying "Yes" -- I would not consider the behavior "suicidal," or a "sad example" of anything. On the contrary. For a true example of how religion is bad for you, we should look to the likes of Buford Furrow, not any of the victims of Columbine. What was bad for Cassie, what was bad for Isaiah Shoels and the others, was not religion, or atheism, or skin color, or violent video games. What was bad for them were Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold.
So, Cassie Bernall's last moments do not, after all, stand out as a shining example of faith. She was not any more or less special than the others who were murdered at Columbine High School. There is nothing edifying here, except that perhaps the cynical maneuverings of Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, et al. may have been temporarily set back by the facts. The mythical martyrdom of a teenage girl is not a threat, but the same can't be said of the religious nationalists who would further their political and social agendas in her name.
-
dedalus
Dickelentz,
We all get that -- your typical Christian breakdown of Jesus's redemptive power as a mediator for us all is not new to most of us here. Part of what this thread is about is the questionable way you've grafted that agenda onto a real life tragedy, exploiting the loss and pain of hundreds in a way that disparages the beliefs of many who were hurt, and the way you deliberately use a shallow, inarticulate, hate-ridden teenager to stand in for atheists everywhere.
Let's make no mistake about this: yours is a modern day morality play, and as such its characters are meant to represent different types of people. But the truth is, most atheists (especially on this board) come to their views by complex avenues paved with much reading, deliberation, and intellectual refinement. But your play hardly probes the legitimacy of that path -- it is only concerned with making its non-believing characters as stupidly callous as possible.
I also find this part of your response curious:
Rejection of God doesn't often end with this type of tragedy. But rejection of God always results in separation from God. This frequently leads to difficult and somtimes tragic consequences.
So, to be specific in regards to the content of your play, the theme is that rejection of God doesn't always make people unload bullets into people, but rejection of God sometimes makes people unload bullets into people? What kind of statement is that?I suppose it'd be lost on you to catalogue the countless murders perpetuated by Christians on non-Christians over the centuries. All too often (probably more often, but I'll leave that alone for now), fanatic Christians unload bullets into people, too. The common denominator seems to be fanatism, or psychological illness -- not whether one believes in God or not per se.
In any event, your play is very offensive to atheists, portraying them only as lost, hateful, gun-toting monsters. In addition to being an atheist, I am also an educator, and the events of Columbine were disturbing in ways I'm not able to describe on a public forum, ways your one-dimensional play doesn't begin to understand.
Dedalus
-
2SYN
ExpatBrit, I love the way you cut Dickelentz down to size! I couldn't have agreed more with what you say. Religion furthering it's agenda through emotional blackmail is sickening.
Unfortunately they always have some idealogical black hole to throw even the most well-thought-out of arguments into, such as the one that God is all-powerful, or that you must have faith or you will not understand. This is one of the things that truly annoys me about Christians - they base their lives on a flawed book of fairytales written by God only knows who, 99% of the time not even bothering to investigate any of it's teachings, and then expect us to believe it too.
They are the prisoners inside their own minds, and they will be trapped there until they die.
Mindchild: If you're reading this, I just remembered an interesting sci-fi short story I read once where the author mentioned that religion and dreaming were both the direct results of a tiny parasitic creature which came from another star system a million years ago. This parasitic creature apparently lived off human brain waves, and eventually became so integrated with the human race that we don't even know it's there now. He said it was the frontal lobe
The earlier in the forenoon you take the sun bath, the greater will be the beneficial effect, because you get more of the ultra-violet rays, which are healing. - The Golden Age
-
dickelentz
You all make some very good and perhaps valid points. But remember that any discussion, if is to be of use, should be based on facts, not speculation.
Those who accuse the play of singling out atheists have undoubtedly neither read nor seen the play. "Jason" was not an atheist nor a non-believer. He in fact did accept that God existed. What he did was reject God's solution for his problems in life. Instead of deciding to trust God with his life, he turned his back on God and gave into his anger and frustration.
It is true that many people who call themselves Christian have committed heinous crimes in the name of God. Those who call themselves "christian" and violate God's principles in this fashion are christian in name only and do not reflect God's will nor God's nature. Unfortunately, too many of these types of things have occurred in our history leaving many with a bad taste in their mouth about Christians in general. All we can do is ask what you would request from us in return: that we not be judged by the actions of those who have abused God's truth any more than you would ask us not to judge "athesists" by the actions or mis-statements of a few.
What can be stated truthfully about christians and non-christians alike is this: Anyone who murders someone else is not doing God's will and has rejected God's truth. The play presents this truth, not as a condemnation of atheism or of non-believers, but as showing the link between the tragedy and Jason's rejection of God.
Rejecting God does not normally lead to murder. But all murders are the result of rejecting God as well as God's will for our lives.
-
ashitaka
I have an idea. Let the memory of a brave but deceased girl rest, and not be used for ANY purpose...just let her rest. There's no need to use her to sell hope to people. They shoul be able to find it on their own, without the use of a deceased person's experience.
ashi
-
detective
Have any of you read any Flannery O'Connor? Now, there's an interesting writer who also believes in God. However she puts a mean twist on "morality" writings. I'd highly recommend her writings- very entertaining.
Ever read any of her work, Mr. Lentz?
-
dedalus
Excellent point of comparison, Detective!
O'Connor's works are nuanced, ambiguous, troubling, complex, and true to some aspect of our actual experience -- and even though I disagree with her "faith" (to use a rather reductive word for it), I find her stories utterly enthralling.
I suppose it's in some ways unfair to hold Dickelentz up to O'Connor's standards. But, even without the comparison, Dickelentz's play is shallow and trite -- or, to be fair, the synopsis and bried excerpt on his website is.
Also, Dickelentz's claim here that his character believes in God but rejects him is not clear from the information available to us (and I'm not about to PAY for the rest of the script!). A person who rejects God in any meaningful sense of the word does not believe in Him. People who reject God do so because they realize that His existence, especially in the Christian mold Dickelentz casts Him, is so fundamentally absurd that it is highly questionable at best.
So, I suppose I reject God, the same way I reject the tooth fairy -- I have no particular grudge against either of them, since I believe them not to exist. But, I can say, if the God of the Bible could be proven to exist, I'd reject him anyway. He's a fucking asshole -- sending bears to devour children, having His chosen people divide between them the captured virgins of benevolent tribes, throwing temper tantrums whenever His puny human creations fail to satisfy his erratic, arbitrary, bloodthirsty whim.
There is a point in Dickelentz's play where Jason (the killer) throws a Bible in the trash and declares that it's all lies. Well, he might have said "mostly lies," and he would have been right enough. It's hardly a legitimate motivation to go on a killing spree.
And Mr. Dickelentz still hasn't answered the original charges of religious vampirism.
Dedalus
-
compactmowse
I don't believe that Mr. Lentz s gulity of "vapirism", nor is he exploiting the tragedy of columbine. I believe that if a person can get hope from another person's life and/or death, then more power to them. And, of course, they should share it with others because people learn from other's mistakes, experiences and knowlege. I also belive that most of the people involved in this discussion or incredibly unfamiliar with Mr. Lentz's play and the message that it communicates.