A sickening example of religious vampirism

by expatbrit 80 Replies latest jw friends

  • dickelentz
    dickelentz

    Dedalus,

    I re-read some of your posts as well as mine. I also tried to sense what others have been saying in general.

    You are right. I haven't answered your questions. And they do deserve an answer. I believe the questions to be fair, and ones that many have asked.

    Since I see the Bible in perhaps a different light than you do, the events of the old testament do not trouble me as much as they do you. It may be that I'm missing something. It also may be that the context in which I understand them leads me to a different conclusion about them.

    Some of the things you've mentioned are not examples of behaviors God approves of. For example, there are many examples in the book of Judges that exemplify the extent to which sinful men fall away from God. The sins that the people of Israel committed got progressively worse. But the book points out that the cause of their behaviour was their rejection of God. Because of their rejection of God, their lives and their society grew progressively worse. In the end (as the last verse in Judges states), "there was no king in Israel. Everyone did what was right in their own eyes."

    Many of the events you have issues with can be found in the book of Judges. In addition, you will find examples of child sacrifice, brutal murders, incest, and rape.

    But the moral of the story is not "you must try harder or else....". It's really "here's the depths that SOME may fall to when they turn their backs on God." The Jews were God's chosen people. Yet they had fallen so far away from God that in some ways they were worse than the nations that surrounded him.

    They were not far different than what some have done today in the name of God. You are absolutely right about that as well. There are some who call themselves Christians who have done despicable things in the name of God.

    Many religions have taken these stories and used them to fashion a tyrannical form of religion made up of a list of oppressive rules used to control people rather than help them out. These religions mistakenly think that if they come up with the right set of rules, they can someone gain God's favor. The problem is that is just doesn't work. In fact, God NEVER intended our relationship with Him to be based on a set of rules.

    The "core" message of the Bible is that no good thing we do can get us any closer to God. It would be like trying to swim from California to Hawaii. You may be able to get part of the way. But everyone would eventually drown.

    The "core" message of the Bible is about God's love. He wants a relationship with us and provided a means to "mend the fence" so to speak. When Jesus died on the cross, he paid the penalty for our sin. God no longer holds my sin against us, because Jesus took the punishment for us on the Cross.

    Unfortunately, most religions simply don't "get it". Most teach a warped view of God that presents him as an oppressive being just waiting to lash out at those who cross Him up. The God I see in the Bible is nothing like this. He wants to have a personal relationship with us, and has communicated in the Bible the means to that relationship.

    I realize that this doesn't answer all your questions, but hopefully it is a starting point.

    I do appreciate this forum and I don't mind continuing the discussion if it can be fruitful. I certainly cannot answer all your questions but will make an attempt to respond if I feel I reasonably can.

  • dedalus
    dedalus

    Ianao,

    Oops! Someone got a little carried away with the cut-and-paste, eh?

    Dedalus

  • dickelentz
    dickelentz

    This was not a cut-and-paste error, if that is what you are suggesting. I'm acknowledging some things that I think you and I agree upon. Hopefully this can serve as a common point for further discussion.

    I agree that you will find many places in the Bible that talk about the depths of sin that even God's "chosen people" can fall into. A fair question is "Where was God when all this was happening?" If you wish me to answer this I can.

    Another of my points is this. Depraved or oppressive forms of religion are false expressions of what God is really like. Those exposed to these types of religions often get a tainted picture of what God is really like and frequently have little good to say about "religion" and especially "christianity" in general.

    But I don't believe that God is either depraved or oppressive. I also believe that God has revealed his true and loving nature in the Bible. Unfortunately, our bad experiences with "religion" often keep us from seeing what God wants to reveal to us about himself.

    Is is possible for us to work around these distortions that some religions create about God's true nature so that we discuss what God is really like?

  • dedalus
    dedalus

    No, I made a cut-and-paste error, repeating one paragraph twice in my last reply to you, Mr. Lentz.

    Dedalus

  • dickelentz
    dickelentz

    On a lighter topic, ever watch "Red and Green"? If so, what do you think of it?

  • dickelentz
    dickelentz

    I did one of the things you asked me to do. I cruised around the different forums to see what kind of "fundamentist" issues are being discussed or have influenced the comments posted.

    I've concluded that if the observations you and others make about God and the Bible are correct, that God is indeed some kind of ogre or tyrant, then it is reasonable to reject God as well as the Bible. Based on this, no amount of evidence would drive you or others to accept the Bible as the word of God. In fact, I would agree that your decision in this case would be both logical and wise. I wouldn't want a relationship with a god who is a tyrant, and wouldn't expect you to want want either. No amount of "proof" would convince us to make a different decision in this case.

    I just happen to view the Bible as well as God differently. I've read the same passages you and others cite but don't necessarily draw the same conclusion about what they mean or what they say about God. But for me to explain what I think about them as well as what I wrote in my play, I need to put my understanding of these passages into the context of what I understand about God and what He's communicated through the Bible. Only by explaining what I believe to be the core message of the Bible can I succeed in answering your other questions.

    So, Dedalus, if you or others would like to continue this discussion, I can write more. I would truly like to put some other issues on the table to see what you think as well as to perhaps answer some of the questions you posed earlier.

    So, are you or others game?.....................

  • dedalus
    dedalus

    Dickelentz,

    I'm pretty much done with this thread, and if, as you seem to suggest, a new direction or fresh start or whatever is needed, let's do it in another thread. I'm open to a new topic, whatever you want, and I'll respond to whatever you write with less vitriol than I have here. But in order to focus on just one thing, I think we need to get out of this "religious vampirism" thing. It's all left a rather bad taste in my mouth.

    I'll be looking for you.

    Dedalus

  • dickelentz
    dickelentz

    Sounds like a reasonable approach. How do we set one up?

  • dedalus
    dedalus

    At the bottom of this thread there is an icon that says "post new topic." Click on it, enter your username and password, type out your message, and voila! a new topic is on the board.

  • Xander
    Xander

    Quick question to dickelentz...

    How does your view of God and murder reconcile with:
    Genesis 9:27
    Exodus 17:1-16
    Leviticus 27:28-29
    Deuteronomy 20:16-18
    Deuteronomy 25:17-19
    Deuteronomy 29:16-18
    Joshua 6:15-21
    1 Samuel 15:18,33

    Oh, hey, new testament:
    Revelation 8:9
    Revelation 9:4-5,18-20
    Ah, hell, the whole book of Revelation, really

    I mean, we're talking just the tip of the iceberg here. Seems to be an awful lot of God-approved killing.

    A fanatic is one who, upon losing sight of his goals, redoubles his efforts.
    --George Santayana

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