LMAO @ Twitch
What is "truth" - COULD Einstein Have Been Wrong?
by AGuest 197 Replies latest jw friends
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THE GLADIATOR
Tammy thanks for taking the time to reply. Making personal comments about people is not something I feel comfortable with. Unfortunately an examination of a person becomes necessary if their argument is based solely on personal claims. I must add that my responses are not unduly driven by emotion. Avoiding getting sucked into pointless circular debates is one way of avoiding becoming personal.
I understand that Shelby is your spiritual sister, which tends to magnify critical comments made towards her. Your affection and support for her on many threads is touching. From my perspective I see the increasing influence she is having on you. Not my business but my comments made to her mentioned believers too.
I wish you both well in your spiritual journey.
Trevor
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AGuest
Aguest: In your verbatim reply, it is funny you left out the question i actually asked you: ... You HAVE seen this JAHESHUA character while awake? you have heard his voice?
My apologies, dear Bohm (again, peace to you!). Unfortunately, I had a LOT to respond to yesterday... here and elsewhere... and ust didn't have the energy to state, yet one more time that I am NOT asleep and NOT dreaming, that when I AM asleep, my Lord wakes me up... as I have many, MANY times over the years. I also thought, "And what will my truthful answer lead to next?" and I just wanted interested in going there with you, yesterday. It's a new day, though, and although I didn't get much sleep last night (patches not working so well, any longer, apparently)... I am up for it. What else would you like to know, dear one? Please note... you have my number - I can explain in better detail... as well as help you at least have some kind of reference... so you know what I mean. Trying to do so through an Internet social forum will be lacking. Just so YOU know...
I see the increasing influence she is having on you
Please forgive my forthrightness on this, dear Glad (again, peace to you!), but I think your comment is unkind, unloving, unfair... condescending... and manipulative as to dear tec (the greatest of love and peace to you!). It suggests that is unable to think for herself and so is, underneath it all, nothing more than a follower. That is totally untrue... and, again, unkind, unloving... and unfair. It is manipulative in that you are trying to plant seeds of doubt... by eroding HER confidence in herself and what SHE believes. Why would someone... claiming to come from a place of good, truth, and honesty... DO that... while claiming to have some level of respect and regard for the person they're doing that TO? This is the same subtle tack that the WTBTS and religion uses: "there's something 'wrong' with you! You don't think like ME... so you must not be able to think at all... and so should leave the thinking to folks like ME."
Dear tec is one of the most intelligent people on this board, IMHO. She not only sees/gets what I post... but what YOU post... even when others don't. BECAUSE of her thinking abilities. She can articulate her beliefs in a way that even YOU have to respect. Yet, you apparently DON'T respect her... but think she's really just a kind, sweet... well, patsy.
C'mon, Glad... you don't like me, don't agree with me... fine. But to use that to try and erode HER faith and beliefs... what IS that??? Are you SO insecure in yourself that you simply CANNOT live... and LET live... but rather MUST have someone believe as you do, even if you have to chip away at their self-confidence to do it?
Tell me, again... HOW is that different from the WTBTS??? It isn't, IMHO. It is the same 'ol, same 'ol: I don't believe what YOU do... and if you don't believe as I do... you're "mentally diseased". Or worse, you even can't think for yourself and so MUST have someone else do it. And I'm better'n anybody else you could choose.
I get dear tec's affection for you. I had it as well, some time ago. Until your inquiries began to become attacks. So, I guess I can say that I see the influence of others... on YOU... although I never said anything (because you have a right to believe as you do, for whatever reason(s) you do). For you to take such an issue with her, then... is hypocrisy.
Again, peace to you, both... still... and truly.
YOUR servant... still... because I am still a servant to ALL those of the Household of God, Israel... "Contenders with God"... even if they don't have a CLUE that they ARE of such "House"... and a slave of Christ... always and until time indefinite,
SA
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THE GLADIATOR
AGuest – so many words in response to one sentence from me. You should read what you have written again. You have given away more about yourself and your agenda than you realize. You are concerned about my influence on Tammy without any regard for the influence you exert on a daily basis.
My respect and regard for Tammy is such that I consider her capable of speaking for herself. She is capable of understanding my intentions without your heavy handed intervention and blatant attempt to control our conversation.
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AGuest
AGuest – so many words in response to one sentence from me.
Verbosity is only one of my flaws, dear Glad (again, peace to you!)... but I do cop to it...
You should read what you have written again. You have given away more about yourself and your agenda than you realize.
Perhaps. Since I've never hidden anything about myself... and my agenda is nothing more than to tell the truth... you may be right. Hopefully, you got all of that. I truly don't mind if you did...
You are concerned about my influence on Tammy without any regard for the influence you exert on a daily basis.
I am not concerned with either, dear one, as I don't believe either of us HAVE an influence on dear Tams (peace to you, dear one!). Certainly not from what I've come to know... and appreciate... about her. Heck, she can articulate what I mean better than I can... so it's highly unlikely that it's me who has the influence on her (indeed, I think she would give the credit for THAT to our Lord, the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH... and not to some good-for-nothing servant. I mean, really...).
As for YOUR influence on her... well, while I see where you're TRYING to influence her, I (1) am not concerned (for her), and (2) don't think it's working, so... again, no concern.
My respect and regard for Tammy is such that I consider her capable of speaking for herself.
Apparently, not... because you apparently don't even think she is capable of THINKING for herself. At least, not according to your comment...
She is capable of understanding my intentions without your heavy handed intervention and blatant attempt to control our conversation.
Yeah, I think so, too... and so, again, consider your comment absolutely unfounded... and nothing more than a feeble attempt to manipulate... although YOU may not even see/know/understand that. Some of that subtle "brainwashing" kind of stuff that unintending... and unconcious of it... JWs do... all the time.
Think, dear Glad. It was uncalled for... and totally inaccurate. Based on your own admissions, just above.
Again, peace to YOU... truly!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
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Band on the Run
Within the past few years I read a bio of Einstein by Walter Isaacson (I believe). It was written from a lay person's perspective. Einstein was a theoretical physicist. Many things he posited could not be proved until technology caught up with him. He was proven correct repeatedly. Isaacson claimed that Einstein being Jewish and excluded from respectable academia helped his theories. He had to work in a patent office which gave him pragmatic training.
I doubt Einstein believed he was absolutely correct. New technology will reveal different ways of viewing the universe. His unified theory never came to fruition.
Witnesses and former Witnesses tend to think in black and white terms. Right. Wrong. No in between. I catch myself doing it all the time. They are called theories and not facts. My impression was that Einstein has not been proved wrong as much as the debate, conversation has changed to dark matter.
I expect how when I mention contradictions in scripture or Jesus' humanity it makes some people very nervous. Allowing contradictions and seeing Jesus as every bit human as God has widened, not narrowed, my faith.
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bohm
Aguest: So when you are asleep, you are woken up, and you can both see the LORD and hear his voice?
Can you converse with him? Ie. can you ask him questions out loud (like you would to a normal person), and does he then respond? Or do you think questions, and does he then read your mind and respond?
Do you hear him talk, as in you hear a (physical) voice, or do you feel his words "manifest" themselves in your head?
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Twitch
Shelby,
May I ask what was the name you showed her, dear Twitch (and peace to you, as well!)?
Uh, that name you so often mention. Is there another?
I have never, ever said... here or anywhere else... that God talks directly to people. TO THE CONTRARY, in fact - He does NOT talk directly to people... or to ANYONE. So, you have completely misrepresented my believes to your dear friend, dear one.
Then who is talking to you then if not god, Jah of Armies, holy one of Israel, whom you so often attribute as the one who directs you?
Sorry, perhaps I should've said Jesus or whatever name you ascribe then. Really, what is the difference? If I talk to you on the phone, am I talking to the phone or you? Does the voice I hear belong to the phone or you? Perhaps it's a distinction to you and those who might believe in spirits that speak to us, but pardon me if it's all the same to me (and others)
I do not disagree... someone who hears voices and is convinced it's god MIGHT be schizophrenic. I hear a voice... and it is NOT God's (although it was on six occasions... out of thousands, perhaps millions - I don't keep count of the latter, but since the former is so few... it would be hard not to).
So you do in fact say god has spoken to you, albeit on a few rare occasions. But didn't you just say god never speaks directly to people?
But I'm not schizophrenic, dear one, truly. I really am okay. Maybe not "normal"... as some define "normal" (I say that, though, because every aptitude test I've ever taken put me in the "above normal" to "way above normal" to "off the chart" categories...)
Well, it stands to reason that it's not up to you to decide if you have the condition and that's it's for a medical professional to determine. Apparently, those who have such conditions cannot differentiate between their reality and what the rest of the "normal" populace experiences. For what it's worth, I don't consider myself "normal" either and have tested way above average on tests as well. This doesn't mean I or anyone couldn't be subject to a condition of which we're unaware as such. I trust that the medical profession knows more than I do about such things. I don't consider you insane or crazy but you do hear voices other than your own and this is a legitimate concern. If you don't think so and decline to put it to the test, that's up to you. But you can't be surprised if some, if not many doubt the authenticity of your claims.
Why would she be interested?? She is secure in her beliefs... whatever they are. Nothing I have to say is of any consequence to her. What I don't get is why it is of consequence to you.
As I said, I believe that people who are in a crux of belief should have fair representation of the different options. You offer one side, I offer another. Simple as that.
But you could do me a favor, if you would be so kind... since you indicate that she's a christian... and ask her what she thinks Christ meant when he made the statements recorded at John 5:39, 40; 7:37, 38, and 10:1-8 and 27. You can feel free to share with her what I believe he meant, if that'll help. But I would like to know her take... as a christian... and a psychologist.
As you said, what you believe is of no consequence to her, thus the reason for her declining my offer to read your posts, either as a christian or a psychologist. I thought she might be interested and could offer some unique perspective as she usually does but that wasn't the case. No professional would base a diagnosis on a website discussion board and she doesn't debate or preach her beliefs.
As for asking her an opinion on your scriptures, I'll consider it. We've been down this road and we have an understanding about belief and respect each other's right to it. She doesn't try to convince me of hers and I reciprocate. Believe me, we've had quite the discussions that range all over the map.
Please let me know what you dear friend says about the verses, dear one. She should make sure to use a modern Bible version, though... as the KJV misstates the opening to John 5:39.
Honestly, she's not that concerned with scriptures, bible versions, translational issues or theology in general. She believes in god and christ without a doubt and attends church but is more laissez-faire about the whole thing. It's a personal thing that needn't be preached, debated or justified. I respect that.
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AGuest
Uh, that name you so often mention. Is there another?
I mention two names, dear Twitch (again, peace to you!). Which did you give her?
Then who is talking to you then if not god, Jah of Armies, holy one of Israel, whom you so often attribute as the one who directs you?
JAH of Armies is not the Holy One of Israel, dear one. He is the MOST Holy One of Israel. The One who "directs" me is His SON... the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, His Chosen One. And, yeah, there is a difference. HUGE difference.
Sorry, perhaps I should've said Jesus or whatever name you ascribe then. Really, what is the difference?
I do not know... nor am I directed by... "Jesus." The difference is that they are two different persons. The Son speaks directly to any of us. The Father speaks through the Son. I have only heard the Father on six occasions... the first time, when He and the Son both spoke clearly to me. Since that time, only to ratify something the Son told me.
If I talk to you on the phone, am I talking to the phone or you? Does the voice I hear belong to the phone or you?
I would say you're talking to me and that the voice belongs to me. Now, could be someone else in standing in the background telling me what to say to you. But in the "spirit" of what you're asking... holy spirit would be the "phone"...
Perhaps it's a distinction to you and those who might believe in spirits that speak to us, but pardon me if it's all the same to me (and others)
Certainly. However, you can't take issue with me, can you, if I tell you how it works... but you choose to see it working how you wish to?
So you do in fact say god has spoken to you, albeit on a few rare occasions. But didn't you just say god never speaks directly to people?
I did not say the MOST Holy One of Israel spoke to me, dear one. I said I heard His voice... and I did. My Lord speaks directly to me, however, all the time.
Well, it stands to reason that it's not up to you to decide if you have the condition and that's it's for a medical professional to determine.
LOLOLOL! You're right, dear one... it may not be up to me to decide. It is certainly more up to ME, however, than it is to other non-medical professionals. Certainly more than anyone HERE...
Apparently, those who have such conditions cannot differentiate between their reality and what the rest of the "normal" populace experiences.
Okay, if you say so. I wouldn't know: I am not a medical professional...
For what it's worth, I don't consider myself "normal" either and have tested way above average on tests as well. This doesn't mean I or anyone couldn't be subject to a condition of which we're unaware as such.
Yet, you assume you are not... don't you? Or are you saying that I'm just as crazy... as YOU are?
I trust that the medical profession knows more than I do about such things.
Then why aren't you leaving it to them?
I don't consider you insane or crazy but you do hear voices other than your own and this is a legitimate concern.
For WHO? Why is it of ANY concern for YOU?
If you don't think so and decline to put it to the test, that's up to you.
Decline? Who declined? Who are you to assume I've never BEEN tested?
But you can't be surprised if some, if not many doubt the authenticity of your claims.
I am not surprised, dear one. I simply don't CARE. See, crazy people CARE if no one believes them. They CARE if people think they're crazy. So, they go around trying to prove that they're NOT. I don't CARE what you believe about me. Truly. You can hear what I share... or refrain. Take it... or leave it. I'm not sounding some alarm, telling you "they're coming"... and that you'd "better get right." I'm not WARNING you of anything... and claiming some pending "abduction" by some other life form. I am not telling you that the earth is about to come under attack by anyone... other than its current inhabitants, man. I haven't told you what to believe... or even that you HAVE to believe.
I have only said that what is occurring with ME... can occur with YOU... if you truly wish it to. And how... through Whom... and why. I just cannot tell you when, because that's information I don't have access to.
As I said, I believe that people who are in a crux of belief should have fair representation of the different options. You offer one side, I offer another. Simple as that.
Oh, if only it were that "simple." Your... ummmm... "concern" tells me that it's not. At least, not for you...
As you said, what you believe is of no consequence to her, thus the reason for her declining my offer to read your posts, either as a christian or a psychologist. I thought she might be interested and could offer some unique perspective as she usually does but that wasn't the case. No professional would base a diagnosis on a website discussion board and she doesn't debate or preach her beliefs.
No professional would, no. So I have wonder where some of you NON-professionals get off trying to do it...
As for asking her an opinion on your scriptures, I'll consider it. We've been down this road and we have an understanding about belief and respect each other's right to it. She doesn't try to convince me of hers and I reciprocate. Believe me, we've had quite the discussions that range all over the map.
Not asking you to [try and] convince her of anything. Just asked you to ask her what SHE thought the wording of the verses meant/mean. That's it, that's all. Absolutely your choice as to whether to run them by her. I was just curious as to what a psychologist, who is also a "christian", would think/say they mean, is all. Because I doubt she's ever really read them before. Be interesting to know what she "sees", now.
Honestly, she's not that concerned with scriptures, bible versions, translational issues or theology in general.
Didn't ask that she be. Just her thoughts on a few verses. Not asking her... or you... to convert. Just what she thinks the words mean. I would ask what YOU think they mean... but you don't have the same credentials (i.e., "christian" AND a psychologist).
She believes in god and christ without a doubt and attends church but is more laissez-faire about the whole thing.
So, THAT'S okay... so long as neither speaks/she doesn't HEAR them speak. Okay. But you do realize, that that's HER.. and not ME... right?
It's a personal thing that needn't be preached, debated or justified. I respect that.
I could say the same thing about atheism, yes? I mean, this WAS a thread that I started... with MY thoughts and concerns... so it was YOU... and others... who "preached, debated, and [attempted to] justify" with ME, right? But I respect that. I just ask that you respect MY right to share MY thoughts, concerns, beliefs, etc.,... on an Internet board that is not only conducive to but invites that.
Now, if this had been a "Twitch" thread on, say, science, the speed of light, Einstein, origin of the universe, atheism, what have you... and I came and interjected my beliefs, etc., in spite of the fact that you didn't ask for such... you could accuse me of preaching, debating, and [trying to] justify to YOU. That is not what happened here, though...
Again, peace to you, dear Twitch, truly!
YOUR servant... still... and a slave of Christ,
SA
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AGuest
Not to change the current direction of the thread, but to perhaps lead it back to the original purpose (peace to you all!)... dear Bohm (peace to you!)... stated that truth is "subjective". I have to disagree, however. As dear tec (the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!), truth does not change - it is our perception... knowledge... and understanding... that changes. Thus, it is our perception, knowledge, and understanding that is "subjective." This thread alone shows that.
Truth, however, is the CONSTANT... and thus, the "Constant Feature." Regardless of what we perceive, know, or understand. For example, regardless of how many believed that a flat earth was the truth... the earth was not flat. Regardless of how many believed that the earth being the center of the universe was truth... the earth was not and is not. Regardless of how many believe there is nothing faster than the speed of light... that may not be the TRUTH (it may be - we shall have to wait and see). Sometimes even regardless of WHO it is that believes.
Regardless of how many believe... or WHO they are that believe it... TRUTH is not based on such things. Truth... is what actually IS. Regardless of whether WE know of it or not. Sure, we have a right to be skeptical. We SHOULD be skeptical... of ANYTHING called "truth" that originates with man. Which is why science is a GOOD thing: as someone posted...
Goodness, the stint many of us did in the WTBTS should be PROOF of this. If we learned nothing else, we should have learned that. Someone posted something to the effect that science ASSUMES the theory is wrong... and sets out to prove it. Or something like that. I do the same with religion; however, doing so didn't lead me away from God... but closer to him.
If he were alive today, I think Mr. Einstein would be OVERJOYED... if something faster than the speed of light was discovered. Because it would only propel his thinking to the "next level"... which I can't imagine he would have run from. I can't imagine that he wouldn't have been the very one searching for that something himself.
Again, peace to you all!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA