by AGuest 197 Replies latest jw friends
Change may be a constant but I wouldn't say it was a "truth". There are "truths", or one united "truth", but nobody's got it these days. Adam had it, but didn't seem to hold it in high enough regard. We'll get it again someday, and face the choice of living by it or not. For right now everything is subjective and we're at loose ends.
AB
Dawkins newest book might be of interest - The Magic of Reality: How We Know What's Really True. Just heard about it, so not yet aware of the focus and scope of the subject matter, but think I'll check it out. Hardcover out on Oct.4
http://www.amazon.ca/Magic-Reality-Know-Whats-Really/dp/1439192812/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b
Interesting title, Unshackled.
My guess though, is that we're as much in the dark ages as to what's really true, as were the Japanese for thinking earthquakes were caused by the catfish that carries the world flapping its tail. (its in the product description of that book, I would not have known on my own, lol). At least in comparison to what people will understand a thousand years from now.
In a sense, science works in the same way that Shelby described the way she understands what is revealed to her... by peeling back layers upon layers in a stack until we finally see the full picture. We can't understand the full picture if we don't have the building blocks and tools in place to be able to understand what we are seeing and communicate that. We have to learn in increments. Or we would turn away altogether, overwhelmed.
Peace,
Tammy
Shelby,
I mention two names, dear Twitch (again, peace to you!). Which did you give her?
Well, Jah isn't really anything unusual or new to any christian. JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH is of course the name in question, one unique to you and your interpretations.
The One who "directs" me is His SON... the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, His Chosen One. And, yeah, there is a difference. HUGE difference.
Again, a difference to you perhaps, and anyone who believes you and in invisible spirits who talk to us.
My Lord speaks directly to me, however, all the time.
Essentially what I told my friend.
I do not know... nor am I directed by... "Jesus."
Is Jesus not the son of god? Is not JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH the son of god? Again, semantics for which a distinction is not a concern, they are the same for all intents and purposes. Whether you drive a Ford or Chevy, you're still driving an automobile.
I would say you're talking to me and that the voice belongs to me. Now, could be someone else in standing in the background telling me what to say to you. But in the "spirit" of what you're asking... holy spirit would be the "phone"...
Ok.
Certainly. However, you can't take issue with me, can you, if I tell you how it works... but you choose to see it working how you wish to?
Aren't you the one who believes in evolution of animals but not man? When told by those who are experts in that field how it works, you still choose your own belief over what's presented to you. You seem to choose to see things how you wish to and the evidence of that is all over this board. That discussion, though not the topic here, is still relevant to your point but more so about you than me.
I did not say the MOST Holy One of Israel spoke to me, dear one. I said I heard His voice... and I did.
So god, who nevers speaks to people, didn't speak to you but you heard his voice? Say what?
I hear a voice... and it is NOT God's (although it was on six occasions... out of thousands, perhaps millions - I don't keep count of the latter, but since the former is so few... it would be hard not to).
I have never, ever said... here or anywhere else... that God talks directly to people. TO THE CONTRARY, in fact - He does NOT talk directly to people... or to ANYONE. So, you have completely misrepresented my believes to your dear friend, dear one.
It's not MY belief, either... nor have I EVER stated it was. And so, I must kindly and sincerely ask that you correct that potentially slanderous misrepresentation... and tell her the truth, that it is NOT my belief... which you would do if you were truly an honest man.
I am an honest man and haven't misrepresented anything. However, I can't be blamed for relaying thoughts and beliefs that are in plain contrast, even contradiction, as noted above.
Apparently, those who have such conditions cannot differentiate between their reality and what the rest of the "normal" populace experiences.
Okay, if you say so. I wouldn't know: I am not a medical professional...
It's not me who says so. Would you believe it if a doctor told you so? Would you believe one who relayed it from a doctor?
For what it's worth, I don't consider myself "normal" either and have tested way above average on tests as well. This doesn't mean I or anyone couldn't be subject to a condition of which we're unaware as such.
Yet, you assume you are not... don't you? Or are you saying that I'm just as crazy... as YOU are?
No, you assume you are not by saying aptitude tests indicate there is nothing wrong with you. My point is that even high functioning people can be subject to mental illness and that people can often be unaware that anything is wrong, by the very nature of such.
Well, I don't hear voices and don't identify myself as being directed by spirits that speak to me, er, whose voice I hear.
And no, you're nowhere near as crazy as I am,...;)
I trust that the medical profession knows more than I do about such things.
Then why aren't you leaving it to them?
Why don't you?
I don't consider you insane or crazy but you do hear voices other than your own and this is a legitimate concern.
For WHO? Why is it of ANY concern for YOU?
Perhaps it isn't a concern per se; if you're happy with it, have at 'er. As I said before, I merely represent another side/possibility to what you're saying is (your version of) the truth.
If you don't think so and decline to put it to the test, that's up to you.
Decline? Who declined? Who are you to assume I've never BEEN tested?
So by this you're saying you have been tested by the medical profession for hearing voices that are not your own?
I am not surprised, dear one. I simply don't CARE. See, crazy people CARE if no one believes them. They CARE if people think they're crazy. So, they go around trying to prove that they're NOT.
And you know this how? Are you a medical professional with a degree in psychology/psychiatry?
I don't CARE what you believe about me. Truly. You can hear what I share... or refrain. Take it... or leave it. I'm not sounding some alarm, telling you "they're coming"... and that you'd "better get right." I'm not WARNING you of anything... and claiming some pending "abduction" by some other life form. I am not telling you that the earth is about to come under attack by anyone... other than its current inhabitants, man. I haven't told you what to believe... or even that you HAVE to believe.
Ah, not directly but you do say there will be a reckoning. So you don't say it overtly, but it's there.
I have only said that what is occurring with ME... can occur with YOU... if you truly wish it to. And how... through Whom... and why. I just cannot tell you when, because that's information I don't have access to.
One doesn't need to hear voices to be a believer, in christ, allah or whatever. But if I start to hear voices other than my own, I won't go to church, I'll go to the hospital.
As I said, I believe that people who are in a crux of belief should have fair representation of the different options. You offer one side, I offer another. Simple as that.
Oh, if only it were that "simple." Your... ummmm... "concern" tells me that it's not. At least, not for you...
Actually, it is. And I don't care how you judge me or my motivations, so at least we have that in common.
No professional would base a diagnosis on a website discussion board
No professional would, no. So I have wonder where some of you NON-professionals get off trying to do it...
Because it's more likely that it's true than god, er, jesus speaks to you IMO.
Ask 100 people if they think somebody that hears invisible spirits talking to them might suffer from a mental illness. Sure, doesn't mean it's true but common perception would be that it is.
I could say the same thing about atheism, yes? I mean, this WAS a thread that I started... with MY thoughts and concerns... so it was YOU... and others... who "preached, debated, and [attempted to] justify" with ME, right? But I respect that. I just ask that you respect MY right to share MY thoughts, concerns, beliefs, etc.,... on an Internet board that is not only conducive to but invites that.
Never said you couldn't voice your opinion, only that it can be contested. That's ok isn't it?
Now, if this had been a "Twitch" thread on, say, science, the speed of light, Einstein, origin of the universe, atheism, what have you... and I came and interjected my beliefs, etc., in spite of the fact that you didn't ask for such... you could accuse me of preaching, debating, and [trying to] justify to YOU. That is not what happened here, though...
So you've never posted on a thread that wasn't about theology or christian matters with an opinion that may be in disagreement with the OP? Really? Do you have to be invited to do so to make it acceptable? I understand thread derailment but if you say this thread is about the objectivity of truth, well, haven't we been discussing that?
BTW, when can I talk to Shelby "on her own" instead of the "slave"?
Good game, your move ;)
Change may be a constant but I wouldn't say it was a "truth".
I understand, dear Anne (peace to you!). I mean, from my perspective Christ is the [only] Truth... but given the progression of the thread, I tried to stay away from that, for now. I tried to find something in THIS world that is a constant... that does not change... and the only thing I could think of was... change. I did not doubt for one second, however, that others would disagree with this... even a non-believer... because I didn't post IT as truth but as what "it seems to ME".
Dawkins newest book might be of interest - The Magic of Reality: How We Know What's Really True.
Thanks for that info, dear Unshackled (peace to you!), truly. To be honest, I think I'll wait for the summary critiques before I decide whether to read it. That's only because I hate spending money on a book (or movie, etc.) that gets all kinds of press and sensation promising it to be "all that" before it comes out... but doesn't necessarily live up to the hype once out. Indeed, even that (living up to the hype) is subjective as Mr. Dawkins has his "followers" as does folks like, say, Carl Sagan, Stephen Hawkins... and J.K. Rowland. Timely subject, though, isn't it, so please feel free to let us know what you thought of it.
science works in the same way... by peeling back layers upon layers in a stack until we finally see the full picture.
Indeed! And so, isn't it interesting, dear tec (peace to you, as well!), how some absolutely deny not only the [negative] similarities between science and religion (although they exist)... but the [positive] similarities between science... and faith... although THEY exist as well?
The greatest of love and peace to you dear ladies, both!
YOUR servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,
SA
Tammy...The Magic of Reality, agreed that is an interesting title.
As for as the scientific method has taken us, I too think we are still in the "dark ages" when it comes to unlocking the mysteries of our universe. Sure we've walked on the moon, advancements in medicine, genetic research, etc....even you and I discoursing over the internet thousands of kms apart (...and in spite you missing the letter X).
But those are all drops in the bucket of what yet there is to discover and learn. For instance, we can only account for 4% of the universe...dark matter and dark energy make up the rest, for which we don't know what that is yet. Exciting times indeed. Wish I could live long enough to see how the human race unfolds.
Shelby: To be honest, I think I'll wait for the summary critiques before I decide whether to read it.
I too don't usually rush out and pick up a book at first release. One, mainly because I don't like hardcover...prefer to wait for the paperback. Two, same reason...let some reviews roll in, find out what exactly is being presented. But will likely end up reading it and look forward to dissecting it here on JWN with you folks.
This thread confirms my decision not to engage. You do not engage with mentally ill people.
Shelby,
Peace to you, dear Twitch... and glad to see you're still... ummmm... willing to "play" - LOLOLOLOL!
Well, Jah isn't really anything unusual or new to any christian. JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH is of course the name in question, one unique to you and your interpretations.
Yes, I understand. No, I don't think your dear friend would have heard of that name... because the Anglicization removed it. If she undertook to research the Hebrew name... and its true English translation ("Joshua", not "Jesus")... OR, even better... simply ask the One she refers to as "Jesus"... I don't doubt that she WOULD get that name.
Again, a difference to you perhaps, and anyone who believes you and in invisible spirits who talk to us.
No, there are many who recognize that the Father and Son are two totally independent and different persons. They are in union, true, making them "one"... in mind and spirit... but the same could be said of those who claim to be "in union" with Christ - one... in mind and spirit. He the Head, they the Body - ONE "christ" (chosen) child. But still all very separate, different, individuals...
Essentially what I told my friend.
That my Lord speaks to me all the time. Good! That is the truth!
Is Jesus not the son of god?
No, dear one... "he" is not. He is a "god" created by man... which man uses to get others to follow them...
Is not JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH the son of god?
Yes, but he is not "Jesus," sorry.
Again, semantics for which a distinction is not a concern, they are the same for all intents and purposes. Whether you drive a Ford or Chevy, you're still driving an automobile.
Not semantics at all, dear one, but very important distinctions. And here is where the fork in the road lies: those who get this... who "call on the name of JAH"... by calling on the name of "the One who came in the NAME of JAH"... seem to progress spiritually... because they learn WHO it is they are to FOLLOW... and so FOLLOW him. And ONLY him. Those who don't...seem to stay where they are... following man, usually... and lamenting as to why THEY don't hear. They don't because (1) a lack of faith IN that One, and (2) they're not listening to "anyone." "Jesus" doesn't speak - "he" can't. "He" does not exist.
Whether you drive a Ford or Chevy, you're still driving an automobile.
Wrong analogy, dear one. Yes, if you're driving an auto. Similarly, both a SPIRIT BEINGS. However, driving, say, a Bentley is not the same as driving, say, a Silver Shadow. Both autos, both very expensive, both very classy... even same make. But not the same model.
Aren't you the one who believes in evolution of animals but not man?
Yes!
When told by those who are experts in that field how it works, you still choose your own belief over what's presented to you.
No, seriously, I don't. Heck, I don't know about these things. So, I have to rely on what is told me by One who does... One who explained to me why one WAS evolved and the other not.
You seem to choose to see things how you wish to and the evidence of that is all over this board.
Well... okay. I don't think I can argue with or dispute that because you are right: I do so choose, but I base it on evidence presented to ME. Even so, aren't YOU... and everyone else here CHOOSING to see things how YOU/THEY see them? I mean, if that were not the case, then it means whatever it is you see/believe... you are doing so because you are being compelled by someone/thing ELSE, yes? Which isn't the case with me: true, another is telling me things, but only so I can make an informed decision... WHEN I choose. How are you seeing what YOU see, dear one?
That discussion, though not the topic here, is still relevant to your point but more so about you than me.
Ummmmm... okay. I think...
So god, who nevers speaks to people, didn't speak to you but you heard his voice? Say what?
I have to correct that. He spoke to Adham and Eve... and to spirit beings... and He attempted to speak to the people of Israel at Sinai. Otherwise, though... yes, He did not speak TO me. He spoke... and I heard it.
I am an honest man and haven't misrepresented anything.
No, you did... but only because you misunderstand. You didn't understand. Yes, I have heard the Most Holy One of Israel (God) speak. HIS voice. No, He was not speaking to ME.
However, I can't be blamed for relaying thoughts and beliefs that are in plain contrast, even contradiction, as noted above.
No contrast or contradiction. Again, you misunderstood. Hopefully, I've clarified. Others have heard His voice, too... even though He wasn't speaking to them...
It's not me who says so. Would you believe it if a doctor told you so?
Would depend on the doctor. If the doctor knew me... yes, I would. If he didn't, I might. I don't know. Would depend on his reason/purpose/basis for telling me this. I mean, c'mon, not every doctor is on the up and up, dear one. Heck, look how long it took me to be diagnosed as a diabetic (I had to tell THEM!)... and how long it took them to diagnose my shoulder shoulder condition. Doctors have been known to MISdiagnose, yes? So... it would depend, truly.
Would you believe one who relayed it from a doctor?
The above notwithstanding, if I believed that the doctor stated it and such one WAS only "relating" it, yes, I would.
you assume you are not by saying aptitude tests indicate there is nothing wrong with you.
Ummmm... you totally missed that one, dear one. I stated that such tests indicated I'm not "normal." Which is something YOU brought up...
My point is that even high functioning people can be subject to mental illness and that people can often be unaware that anything is wrong, by the very nature of such.
Absolutely! I once was an assistant to a mathematical/engineering genius, a man who designed testing simulations for ground launch cruise missiles (GLCMs). I worked for Systems Development Corporation (SDC) a military contractor during the 80s and was asked to run the simulations for AFOST (I was really good with "DOS" back then, so...). Had to get a "Top Secret Security Clearance" for that (and so did have to undergo some... ummmm... evaluations, including psych, but nothing too indepth). Anyway, my "boss" was considered one of the programming geniuses of the era (many who worked there were at that time)... however, he couldn't remember to zip his own pants. Or wear two socks. Or blow his hot coffee before burning his lips/tongue. Then we have people like the man portrayed by Russell Crowe in "A Beautiful Mind."
So, I know what you mean... but I don't think I'm like that, at all.
Well, I don't hear voices and don't identify myself as being directed by spirits that speak to me, er, whose voice I hear.
Okay, so... that's you. You say that to say... what?
And no, you're nowhere near as crazy as I am,...;)
I'm gonna take your word for that - LOLOLOL!
Why don't you?
Why do you assume I haven't?
Perhaps it isn't a concern per se; if you're happy with it, have at 'er.
Are you SURE? Because you DO seem to have been a bit concerned... although it seems unable to explain why that is...
As I said before, I merely represent another side/possibility to what you're saying is (your version of) the truth.
Yes, I understand. And I don't fault you for offering such other side/possibility... unless/until you tell me it IS. I do take issue with that. Which you surely understand, yes?
So by this you're saying you have been tested by the medical profession for hearing voices that are not your own?
Not for that, no... but that did come up. And in light of all that they... ummm... examined... and my responses to the OTHER questions they asked... they didn't think it was anything to be "concerned" about... but just my... ummmm... "individual quirkiness." So...
I am not surprised, dear one. I simply don't CARE. See, crazy people CARE if no one believes them. They CARE if people think they're crazy. So, they go around trying to prove that they're NOT. And you know this how? Are you a medical professional with a degree in psychology/psychiatry?
Actually, I know it because (1) that's what "they" told me when they told me I was, well, "quirky" (and told me not to worry about it), and (2) I have friends who have varying degrees in Psychology.
Ah, not directly but you do say there will be a reckoning. So you don't say it overtly, but it's there.
Where in the WORLD have you seen/heard ME say there will be a "reckoning"??!!! WHO are you confusing me with, dear Twitch?? What "reckoning"??
One doesn't need to hear voices to be a believer, in christ, allah or whatever.
Again, you're confusing me with someone else. When have I ever said one had to hear voices to be a "believer"? God grants the gifts of the spirit... once of which is hearing (discerning) spirits... to whomever HE wishes to grant it. That does not mean that such one has no use for one who was given, say, the gift of wisdom... or healing... or tongues... or prophesying, etc. Now, I HAVE said that ANYONE can hear my Lord's voice... which is true. It is a GIFT of the Spirit... by means of holy spirit... and Gods does not withhold His holy spirit from anyone who ASKS... so long as such one asks... in FAITH.
But if I start to hear voices other than my own, I won't go to church, I'll go to the hospital.
But that's you... and to each his/her own, dear one, yes?
I don't care how you judge me or my motivations, so at least we have that in common.
I hope so. I haven't actually "felt" that... ummmm... "freedom" from you, though. Rather, I have "felt" that you want ME to care how you judge me or view my motivations... and may have been surprised to literally read me state that I don't. 'Cause that's not actually "politically correct"... here or in the world.
Because it's more likely that it's true than god, er, jesus speaks to you IMO.
But since you are not a professional, your opinion isn't weighty on this, dear one. I realize your "ego" may not be able to handle that... but it really is the truth. What you and others think of me... your opinion as to what I hear, if I even do... is irrelevant to me. I don't share what I do because I want or need you to believe me. I do it because (1) it's the truth, and (2) I love the One who speaks and won't deny the truth of his speaking, even to be accepted... by anyone. My integrity is not based on what others THINK of or opine ABOUT me. Please understand that.
Ask 100 people if they think somebody that hears invisible spirits talking to them might suffer from a mental illness. Sure, doesn't mean it's true but common perception would be that it is.
Sigh... you really don't get it, do you? It does not MATTER what a group of 1,000 people think... 1,000,000 people think. Doesn't mean they're right. If that were the case, then you should hightail your butt back to the WTBTS. Right? 'Cause, apparently, close to 7,000,000 people are gonna think YOU'RE "mentally diseased" pretty soon, if they don't already. Right? C'mon, Twitch... what a group of people "think" means... what? Seriously??.
Never said you couldn't voice your opinion, only that it can be contested. That's ok isn't it?
Contested is one thing. Calling someone names... or stating (even insinuating) that they're mentally unstable... isn't contesting. It's speculating... without any real basis. And that's not okay. Unless, of course, you ARE "mentally diseased"... as some would say about YOU...
So you've never posted on a thread that wasn't about theology or christian matters with an opinion that may be in disagreement with the OP?
Er, huh? Sure, I have. And in such an instance you'd have every right to call me on it and demand a reason for me having done so. But that's not what occurred here... nor what your comment... or my response... was referring to.
Really? Do you have to be invited to do so to make it acceptable?
Er? No. Wait... I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing, here.
I understand thread derailment but if you say this thread is about the objectivity of truth, well, haven't we been discussing that?
Not really, and I don't have a GREAT issue with that... except that some have tried to make it about something else... and you're stating that I am the one who did that. Which is not the case, at all. YOU all made it about "me"... and my spiritual beliefs... when I hadn't even gone there. Hadn't even intended to. Just trying to understand how others think on the matter, was all... what others thought constituted truth... and when. Unfortunately, strongly rooted preconceived bias didn't allow some to see that, though. But that's truly not on me...
BTW, when can I talk to Shelby "on her own" instead of the "slave"?
You're "talking" to her, now, dear one... and can do so whenever you wish. Here or off the board, doesn't matter to me. I've nothing to hide... and indeed have posted quite a bit "on my own", as well as my Lord's servant, over the years. No difference, really... except I try to be a little more... ummmm... respectful... when I am referring to him (or the Father)... or addressing [members of] His Household. I mean, he deserves that and so do they.
Good game, your move ;)
I agree! Although, you just lost your queen... and you know what usually happens after that: game's usually close to being "over."
Again, peace to you, dear Twitch!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA, noticing that although she lost a pawn... she now has, let's see, your queen, both of your knights, one of your rooks, one of your bishops... and all but two of your pawns... so, it isn't looking all that "good" for your side, right now...
You do not engage with mentally ill people.
Ah, yes, perhaps that's why so many ignore your often incoherent posts, dear BOTR (peace to you)... prompting you to repost more incoherent comments in the hopes that someone WILL engage you?
Seriously... you didn't have to comment here at all, and certainly not as you did. Totally unwarranted and... absolutely hypocritical, given comments often made as to YOUR posts. But, of course, I'm "picking" on you, now.
Peace.
A slave of Christ,
SA, who marvels at the apparently vast number of [armchair] medical professionals on this here board...
LOL BOTR.....your post was engaging!
Aguest....this is a very interesting topic...and it's very interesting indeed to see what has come from it.
It seems that everyone has their own version of truth, so how do we know what is REALLY true?
I have to say...I am not sure.
