Shunning..... at Meetings ???

by IMHO 43 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  bats in the belfry

  Home brew rules & regulations:

  Regarding the relationship between husband and wife, Jesus’ words at Matthew 19:5,6 must be adhered to. No one can set apart man and wife, not even if one of the two is disfellowshiped. The exception, of course, is where adultery has been committed. Then the innocent mate may depart if so desired. (Matt. 19:9) When attending congregation meetings at the Kingdom Hall, husband and wife, together with children, are to remain together and not be separated because one is disfellowshiped. There is no spiritual communication involved here. They are merely sitting together as a family. This family bond must not be tampered with. However, it would be improper for the mate in good standing to try to force the company of the disfellowshiped mate on other brothers in the congregation when conversing with them. While the family unit stays together, the excommunicated member of the family still may not associate with other members of the congregation.
  
  w63 7/15 p. 445
• 

  Quendi

  The point that many are making, IMHO, is that once you are disfellowshipped, you are the scum of the earth as far as a judicial committee or body of elders are concerned. Recent Watchtower articles, such as those published in the 15 July 2011 issue, only reinforce this attitude for elders, ministerial servants, and the rank and file as well. Coming to the meetings does not mean anything to Witnesses except to those few who really are close to you. The rest are told that they should offer no greeting, no encouragement, no sign of welcome or affection to the disfellowshipped person under any circumstances.

  The stories that I and others have shared about our treatment are an addendum to your original query. We shared them to help you understand that coming to meetings will not alter your treatment by Witnesses inside or outside the Kingdom Hall. The organization demands that the disfellowshipped person show "fruits of repentance", meaning that you must be humiliated on any and every occasion whenever Witnesses are present. That is why the shunning is practiced even if you are a faithful meeting attender. Your attendance, coupled with the humiliating treatment, are seen as the proper "fruits" resulting from your sin. You are a spiritual leper, plain and simple, and will remain such even after your reinstatement. Because even then the WTS imposes sanctions: you cannot comment at meetings; you cannot auxiliary pioneer; you cannot have parts on the TMS or SM. So you're still a second-class Witness. It can take years for the restrictions to be lifted, and then only after you've groveled before the elders in abject humiliation, begging them to do so. And should your meeting attendance or field service participation falter, the restrictions will not be lifted for any reason.

  Small wonder, then, that the overwhelming majority of those disfellowshipped or disassociated never return. Only one-third of those disciplined in this way are ever reinstated. That is a statistic the WTS sweeps under the rug. I brought it up before my judicial committee, adding, "As a former school teacher, I can tell you that is a failing grade in anyone's book. If this arrangement has divine sanction and approval, why is the recovery rate so low? Obviously, something is gravely wrong with the entire procedure." The sullen silence I got in reply from the elders only confirmed what I pointed out and was all the answer I needed about the impropriety, the hatefulness, the unscripturalness of the disfellowshipping and shunning practices the WTS follows. Now that I'm out, I'd rather die and rot in my grave before I ever return.

  Quendi
• 

  crazycate

  "Quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man." (1 Corinthians 5:11-13)

  This has bothered me for some time. Shouldn't a person who is showing repentance by coming to meetings be given the benefit of the doubt? It would be safe to assume that whatever they were disfellowshipped for has ceased right? Wouldn't it be the Christian thing to do to welcome them? And even if they are coming to meetings while still struggling with whatever got them disfellowshipped, how can showing them love, welcoming them to the place they are supposed to be, endanger me or anyone else? In other words, how does shunning them at meetings ensure the safety of the congregation? I suppose some might say that if people are allowed to talk to them at meetings, they might be tempted to talk to them elsewhere where their immoral lifestyle or heretical views might influence someone else. But surely the organization is good enough at laying out rules to make it clear that smiling at meetings is one thing, talking to them anywhere else is not.

  The scripture says quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother who IS... Therefore, when this activity ceases, shouldn't we be able to associate with him again without paperwork and months of shunning. Where is the scripture that supports this?
• 

  Awen

  1 Cor. 5: 11-13 (quoted above) makes the point that the person in question is called a "brother" indicating to me at least that they are still considered part of the congregation which is in direct opposition to the Disfellowshipping procedure of saying " Awen is no longer one of JW's" hence no longer a brother.

  Also in the texts of 1 Cor. (according to the All Scriptures Inspired book) it was a period of no greater than 6 months between the initial disfellowshipping and reinstatement of the man who took his father's wife into his own bed. Compare that with the practice of keeping people out for years amongst JW's for far less sins. Also consider that if the people in the Corinthian congregation weren't even saying a greeting to him or speaking to him,......how did they know he repented since meetings were held in private homes at the time (where he wouldn't be welcomed)? Somebody had to be talking to him.

  In the Myrtle Beach, SC congregation a friend of mine (an Elder of 25 years and professed anointed) committed adultery after the death of his wife 4 years before. He was Dfed for THREE months and then reinstated. No lie. I was stunned. No one could figure out why it was only 3 months instead of 1 year. I'm guessing it was because of his popularity in the cong, the various brothers who depended on him and the amount of money he gave while an active JW.

  I think of all the people I knew who were DFed and had to wait the customary year for reinstatement. Now while I appaud the Elders taking swift action on his part, I am still dismayed why others had to wait a year. Of course I know the answer. They weren't this Brother.
• 

  JW GoneBad

  "True Christians are known by the 'love' they show."

  IMHO, your above statement says it all!

  At your local Kingdom Hall you see on the faces of many publishers toward any that are disfellowshipped the look of 'I can't stand you', 'I'm repelled by you', 'I disapprove of you', 'you nauseate me' and yes even 'I hate you'.

  I know of a sister disfellowshipped woman in my congregation with 4 children (ranging in age from 2 to 8 years) who has been D'Fd as long as I can remember (maybe 5 years now). She has been attending meetings consistently now for the past 2 1/2 years with her children......2 1/2 years mind you!

  I personally have been observing her for this length of time that she has been attending. Obviouly she attends meetings because she wants to be reinstated. Otherwise, why else would she attend?

  My point is, over the 2 1/2 years, I've noticed her on numerous occasions either before meeting or after meeting in the back school with the J.C. handling her case. Each of these meetings with the J.C. have been initiated by her for the purposes of being reinstated. That is how the reinstatement process works.

  Being the concerned 'on-looker' that I am, I asked her a while back about her D'Fd status and how things were going. Her reply to me was she had high hopes of soon being reinstated. That was 6 months ago!

  IMHO, yes "true Christians are known by the 'love' they show". Not true, though, in JW World.

  Every emotion is shown among JWs toward the disciplined except ................. LOVE! And Elders are the worst offenders!
• 

  Quarterback

  You are right, IMHO, we got distracted from the subject.

  Your observations are good. We should be treating such ones like the father of the Prodigal Son illustration. That is showing the Christlike love that Jesus spoke about.

  That of course is in a perfect world. JW's are not that perfect, and are in subjection to the application of the Governing Body's rules in each congregation. I suppose there has to be some rules. After all there may be someone that would like to disrupt the congregation and may live a double life. The early congregation had some examples of this. So perhaps there is a need to maintain some order for unruly ones.

  However, for those who are down, and really feel bad about what they did, shouldn't be treated as ostracised and ignored. This shouldn't be allowed briefly, and especially allowed to continue for such a long time. It's not scriptural. It is a bullying and harsh tactic. What about those who have phobias such as in being with crowds? How inhuman this would be to such ones.

  I'm afraid that there is no end in sight for changing this bad application of scripture. I only see this changing if the government authorites stepped in and forced the GB to ease up their control.
• 

  Quendi

  The Bible is clear about how cases of wrongdoing should be handled. There are no "star chambers" of three elders who judge. In Old Testament days, cases like this were given a public hearing before the city gate, by that city's elders, with the entire process done in the open. That way everyone could see what was going on and the judgment reached was one the entire community could support. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in the New Testament that even remotely resembles WTS proceedings. And Paul's words to the Corinthian congregation don't indicate any secret proceedings either. Everyone knew who the wrongdoer was and what the problem was. This was not a case for elders' eyes and ears only--far from it.

  Jesus said if a brother goes wrong, approach him privately about it. If he doesn't listen, take along one or two more so that the matter is confirmed by two or three witnesses. If he won't listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he wouldn't listen to the congregation, then he was to be treated like a Gentile or tax collector, but even that didn't mean to practice the harsh shunning Witnesses and others do. And the story of the Prodigal Son clearly shows the attitude of Christ and God on how repentant sinners should be viewed and treated. None of these examples leaves room for shunning wrongdoers when they attended meetings, particularly, as Awen points out, when these meetings were held in private homes back in the first century.

  For all the talk of following "Bible principles" the WTS makes, what is plain is that this organization is a counterfeit version of Christianity. It's organizational structure is nothing like what existed in the first century. Instead, it has set up a false theocracy whose only interest is controlling the lives of the rank and file. My advice to those who find themselves expelled is to get themselves as far away from this cancerous group as possible and live the life you are meant to live. Returning to the WTS is like the dog that returns to its own vomit.

  Quendi
• 

  JW GoneBad

  Does being disfellowshipped (and making an effort to 'come back') make you 'worse' than a 'worldly person'? In a word..........YES!

  You want proof. A newly, interested 'worldly person' walks into the KH for the 1st time and everybody and his brother is lined-up to greet him/her. A disfellowshipped individual, regardless of how long or how much of an effort he/she makes to come back walks into the same KH, same meeting, same time and they are avoided, ignored and shunned. It is as though he/she does not exist!

  Now, you would think that an exception would be made especially for the sister woman with the 4 children I mentioned in my previous post.....for the sake of the children. Not a chance!

  That is the JW mindset! It is hypocritical, cruel, bully-like and obviously not something Jesus Chist endorses.

  Good thread by the way. My blood is boiling!
• 

  Quendi

  And to follow up on JW GoneBad's point, if you are disfellowshipped, the absolute worst meeting to attend is the Memorial. I went to five of them while disfellowshipped and they were the most horrid experiences I ever had. Then I made up my mind to never enter a Kingdom Hall again, so when the Memorial came around this year, I gladly skipped it.

  The shunning is bad enough during a regular meeting, but a Memorial celebration only intensifies it. You sit in a corner while people go out of their way to make you feel unwelcome. You see them wearing big smiles as they greet other Witnesses and "guests" while they won't look in your direction unless that is absolutely necessary. And when the "celebration" ends, you had better make a quick exit, all the quicker if another congregation is coming in after yours for their observance.

  If ever there was a meeting on the Witness calendar when a special effort would be made to welcome "lost sheep", you'd think the Memorial would be it. But no, instead of a polite welcome and a few encouraging words, you are made to feel unwanted, unloved, and unappreciated. I found myself wondering why I had made any effort to come at all until I reminded myself that my absence would be noted and held against me when I submitted another reinstatement letter and met with the judicial committee. That was the only reason I had for coming until I finally decided I had had enough.

  Quendi
• 

  stuckinamovement

  This is probably too much detail....but anywhoo....

  I was in an elders meeting once where there was heated discussion about whether or not it was appropriate for the brothers and sisters to give a ride to a carless disfellowshipped woman who was walking in the winter at night with a two year old daughter to get to the meetings. That night she walked home two miles with her daughter in sub 30 degree weather.

  I am ashamed that I didn't speak up more convincingly to show her love and kindness. I was the youngest on the body and kept my mouth shut as the old hardliners argued about how it is supposed to be hard to come back. One even said "serves her right for breaking God's laws"

  I am so sorry for being a part of that racket. God what a jackass I was. (hangs head in shame)

  SIAM