Now what do I do?

by outsmartthesystem 30 Replies latest jw friends

outsmartthesystem

For those of you that know my plight....I need to know your opinion.
Summary - I developed a piss poor, combative, rebellious attitude toward the society many years ago. My wife saw it and hated it. The reason I did is because I knew something was wrong....but I couldn't put my finger on it....and I sure as hell wasn't going to do any "apostate" research. Therefore, I just said "screw it" and developed a bad attitude. I stopped going in service....stopped commenting......encouraged the family to miss meetings etc. My wife witnessed these actions....and it forced her to take over as "spiritual head" of the house. Several years later, I finally woke up and decided to do research. My research has obviously proved my feelings from several years ago correct. That something IS wrong....and now I've put my finger on it. The problem is that I don't want to fade alone....especially knowing my little children are still being raised as part of this cult. But given the bad initial attitude I developed....I kind of pushed my wife into extra spiritual mode. She would more or less make up for my lack of spirituality by going in service more....studying with the kids more etc.
Therefore when I learned the REAL truth....I had already burned that bridge. I couldn't slyly worked critical thinking questions into our family study because we didn't have one. I couldn't work anything in as a family head...because...well....I had relinquished that title long ago. Now....due to the bad attitude I had for so long.....anything I say is taken by my wife as an attack on her faith and the children. My wife listens to and believes all the wonderful elder stories her dad tells her.
She is a very good woman that loves truthfulness. She truly believes that I've been lead astray and that if I just sit down and talk w/ the elders, everything will be fine. I calmly explained that I will be ripe for DF'ing if I do that. She was appalled and said that the elders have NEVER DF'd someone just for having disagreements. She was so distraught by this that she sat down with the presiding overseer and circuit overseer to explain to them why I don't go to meetings and why I don't want to meet with them. According to her, of course, they want to lovingly "help" me. They assured her that no DF'ing would take place unless I "shout from the roof tops my disagreements and recruit others to follow me". Becaues of this.....she wants me to sit down with her AND them and talk about all that I've uncovered.
Here's the dilemma. She won't talk with me on a one on one basis for fear that I will unknowingly seek to wreck her faith. She wants to sit in on a meeting with the elders and me because then she can hear my concerns without feeling like her faith is being attacked....AND the elders can "explain things better" than she can. I truly believe that if I lay out my research.......the elders simply won't be able to respond. They CANT prove 607 BC. They CANT prove 1914. They CANT prove 1919. I am loaded with an arsenal of problematic issues for them. I truly believe that my wife will truly reason on the matters I bring up when she is alone........if only I could get her to listen. Is this my opportunity?
Yes I know I am putting myself out there for potential DFing......but if I get DFd for this......I have my wife as a witness. They said they would only do so if I tried to spread my teachings and recruit others. If they DF me anyway.....I really believe it would be a major wake up call to my wife. I am not afraid of being DFd. What I am afraid of is being DFd while my family is still very much IN. If DFing is the first step to getting her and my children out then I am willing to take it.
I am kind of stuck now. I feel like I almost have to do it. The reason is that my wife said to me the other day, "look....I've now put myself out there for you. I'm agreeable to sincerely listening to what you have to say, so long as the elders are there. I want Jehovah's spirit to be there. (yes....she thinks if elders are present then it will be a blessed arrangement). If you aren't agreeable to doing this then I think it proves that you are wrong, you know you're wrong, and you just want to be rebellious". If I don't do it.....then she's right. It LOOKS like I am afraid the elders are right and all I'm doing is hiding from them. She has no reason to listen to me if it LOOKS like I am not confident enough to discuss with them. It LOOKS then like I am willing to "pick off" a small sheep (her) but not willing to approach the sheep when the "shephards" are around.
Do I take the plunge? If not....have I lost the only opportunity I'll have to reach her?
LostGeneration

Tough situation, that is a one-shot deal like you are describing. Unfortunately, the cult-mind is very difficult to penetrate. I would liken it to a shootout at the OK corrall. You will destroy them with your evidence, and then they will DF you. Even though you win in being right with the facts, you lose in that they will exercise the only power over you and kick you out.
How your wife reacts, only you will know. It sounds like she has already dug in her heels, so this showdown will probably entrench her further. In time, she may see your side, but it may be too late if you are already DFd - because she could pull the "spiritual endangerment" clause and leave.
I guess your only other option is just to cool things down for a while, take six months and just be as happy as you can outside of the cult, let her see you have put it in the past and are moving on with making a better life for your family. You can always invite the elders over for the showdown later if you think its the last resort.
lola-rabbit

GO FOR IT!!!! TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY, you may not get another. This could plant that little seed your wife may need to doubt the ORG. They may get DF, but consider how great the outcome may be.
sir82

They assured her that no DF'ing would take place unless I "shout from the roof tops my disagreements and recruit others to follow me".
They are lying.
However, when (not if) they disfellowship you for "stubbornly holding onto apostate ideas", it may wake your wife up to their hypocrisy.
sinis

You approched this the wrong way. If you get DF-d the elders will encourage your wife to leave you. Trust me, I was down this road. You need to make a 180 degree change. DO NOT talk about the WTS any longer, no more negative stuff to your wife, let it completely go. What you need to do is take the back door approach and show your wife that you are HAPPIER without the borg. Take your kids to B-day parties, set up parties for them, celebrate the holidays, go out on the town... basically show your wife that people who leave are HAPPIER and are not falsely given the stigma (according to WTS) of dog vomit.
If she wants to talk about the WTS, don't respond and tell her you have moved on, it means nothing, and that she will find her own way in due time. Show your kids that you can be "wordly" - hate that word - and still be a moral individual, be happy, and enjoy life.
The greatest thing that worked for me was taking time away from my spouse to go to meetings by filling the void with nights out on the town, special events, vacations, etc. Eventually they missed so many meetings they never went back. It was AT THIS POINT that they were ripe for anti-preaching and actually let me explain to them WHY I left. To this day we have not set foot in a meeting, are both happy, and she enjoys life realizing that religion is 100% BULLSHIT... good luck.
Razziel

I would be cautious because she said "she's put herself out there for you" and based one what you said, she put herself at bat in front of the Elders and CO. That's not easy to do unless she really loves you and believes in you. Based on the information you provided, it seems she believes you are sincere, and really loves you.
Normally, I'd say to lay it all out there, but just based off your post, I think she's got a real shot at seeing the truth if you are patient. You've already been an "unbelieving mate" for several years and she's still defending you...
Having a meeting with the Elders is problematic. Your are going to lose with them regardless of how well formulated your arguments are, and regardless of whatever assurances they gave her, they are lying and will still DF you if they don't like what they hear. You could possibly gain with your wife when she sees they have no answer for your doubts. Or she could side with them and cut you off completely.
You're in the position that you almost have to meet with them. If that is what you decide, you need to keep the discussion on your predetermined talking points. Don't let them dissemble, and above all, don't raise your voice or get angry in any way. Let her see that you have honest questions they cannot answer.
(I just read Sinis reply) I'm inclined to go with his advice. Since you've already been "opposed" for several years and based on what you said, it seems your wife loves you perhaps more (or at least equally) than she loves the organization. If you're patient, and she really is truth-seeking you might be able to win her "without a word", just off your actions as a good husband.
Tough call, and I wish you luck.
Alwayshere

outsmart, if you can't do what sinis said,
then have the Elders explain Zechariah 7:1-5.
It starts off, "In the 4th year of Darius" (518)
The large New world translation gives
Ezra 6:14-15. (marginal ref.) their Insight book under Darius gives 521 as his 1st year.
Zechariah 3, they wanted to know how many
years they had been weeping and wailing.
Verse 5 said "for 70 year."
Marginal ref. gives 2 Kings 25:8-9 for the 5th month. Jerusalem was desolated.
And Jeremiah 41:1-2 for the 7th month. Gedaliah and his men were killed.
The top of their own Bible says "70 years of fasts."
They say Jerusalem was desolated in 607
607 as 1st year, minus 69 years =538 years.
587 as 1st year minus 69 =518. So 518 is when Jerusalem was desolated.
You might want to show this to your wife first, it might save you a trip to the elders.
nugget

This could be a lose lose situation. Your wife is in fact forcing the issue. If she will not discuss with you then any discussion will take place in front of the elders or not at all. The problem you have is that the elders will not be interested in answering your questions or hearing your point of view. In fact as soon as they hear anything that smacks of apostacy then they will rush down the line of questioning do you believe god has an organisation? and do you believe that the governing body are god's representatives on Earth?
If you decide to go ahead then make sure you make no statements but pose everything as a question. If they ask you any of the above questions then ask them in front of your wife what happens to people who answer negatively.
I wish you all the best whatever you decide.
Alwayshere

Dang I meant 587 for the desolation of Jerusalem.
IsaacJ22

I tend to agree with Sinis. No offense, but I think you're going about this the wrong way.
I hate to say this--and I know that many on the board are big on the same line of argument as you--but I doubt they'll care about your research. They will only look at each other sadly, realizing that you're not just some weak, crazy, mixed up kid...which all we lesser apostates supposedly are...but you are instead a dangerous individual who must be dealt with for the good of the congregation. Right now, they probably think you just need straightening out, which is (partially) why they promised your wife they wouldn't DF you. Once they realize they were wrong, they will DF you anyway.
Big time.
I know it feels good or even heroic to stand up and fight the power. I think lots of exxers fall into this trap. But in the end, the best thing you'll have to show for it is the ability to claim you did it. Meanwhile, you may lose your wife, your family, everything. Your kids will likely grow up enslaved to the WTS because they'll come to see you as the bad parent who chose Satan's way of life. And all for what?
Is it worth all that for the right to say you stood up just this one time?
Or you could play it smart and make a solid impression on your kids over the coming years, who will realize that every time the WT mags speak badly of worldly people that they are, in fact, talking badly about their dad. Their dad who is a great person and who isn't hedonistic, dishonest, or any of the other crap they keep saying about non-Witnesses and especially former Witnesses.
That's the long path. But it's the best one you've got. It will be far better than some grand courtroom scene that will end if misery. Trust me, it won't go the way you imagine it would.
Dare I suggest that the elders got your wife to dare you to enter the KH to trick you into going there, exposing yourself as an apostate? That's exactly the sort of thing they do at my old congregation. They'll all justify it as their way of helping you. Even your wife. That may not sound like her, but mine did a few things I wouldn't have thought possible of her at the behest of well-meaning elders.
BTW, I'm still married to a JW who worked with the elders "against me" for a time, too. I don't have kids, but I do have some insight on this issue. I hope my advide helps.

Now what do I do?

Share this