ALSO...........PUT NOTHING IN WRITING THAT SHE CAN SHOW TO THE ELDERS.
Keep your notes hidden!
Theocratic Warfare = WAR not always so fair.
DOC
Now what do I do?
by outsmartthesystem 30 Replies latest jw friends
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mind blown
I also agree w/Sinis AND " YOU WILL BE Dfd!" You won't prove a damn thing.
I might add..... ask your wife, if you were to get Dfd because of this meeting, "how is she going to handle the situation?" put it back on her ......you can show her various situations where it has happened to others just for asking questions.
But I don't agree about taking them to B/d parties ........you will get Dfd for that too if she decides to tell them or someone sees you doning this. You can do alot of awesome stuff with your kids without piting them against their mother. that is wrong. You can be an awesome man and father with quality time and doing fun things.
I have hurrdled mountains with this approch. I pick and choose my battles vary carefully and it seems to be working.....the WTS hangs themselves........and in due time seems like things are heating up now......THE MORE YOU PUSH. THE MORE SHE WILL FIGHT YOU......the WTS has brain washed into believing everyone is out to get them....and it's a battle they MUST win....just think...it's a life or death fight to them....they are fighting for their lives.....you must be loving......
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outsmartthesystem
she could pull the "spiritual endangerment" clause and leave.
I don't believe that will happen. She has told me truthfully (I believe anyway) that she doesn't care if I am disfellowshipped. I am still her husband and the father of her kids. So long as I stay dedicated to her...she promises she would never leave.
If you get DF-d the elders will encourage your wife to leave you. Trust me, I was down this road. You need to make a 180 degree change. DO NOT talk about the WTS any longer, no more negative stuff to your wife, let it completely go. What you need to do is take the back door approach and show your wife that you are HAPPIER without the borg. Take your kids to B-day parties, set up parties for them, celebrate the holidays, go out on the town... basically show your wife that people who leave are HAPPIER and are not falsely given the stigma (according to WTS) of dog vomit.
Again....I don't believe she will leave. Trust me.....I certainly don't act bitter. I do my best to show her that I am happier without the BORG in my life. I certainly do NOT try to engage her in "spiritual" debates. She is the one that engages me. I appreciate your suggestions and will and have done some of them....but I simply cannot take my kids to B day parties/holiday events. THAT will make my wife dig in her heels and possibly leave. If I know how strongly she currently feels about B days and holidays, yet I encourage my kids to engage in them anyway....she will view that as a slap in the face. It will only create tension and make her lose trust in me and question my motives.
I would be cautious because she said "she's put herself out there for you" and based one what you said, she put herself at bat in front of the Elders and CO. That's not easy to do unless she really loves you and believes in you. Based on the information you provided, it seems she believes you are sincere, and really loves you.
You're spot on. She loves me very much. She just sincerely believes I've been lead astray and need help getting back on track. She loves honesty and truth which is why I think she may very well see the light when she sees that the elders cannot answer my questions. I certainly don't want to rush anything.....every day that goes by is one more day of my childrens' minds being molded by a cult. If I wait too long...they'll be older and I fear the cult personality will have already taken control of them too.
I tend to agree with Sinis. No offense, but I think you're going about this the wrong way.
I hate to say this--and I know that many on the board are big on the same line of argument as you--but I doubt they'll care about your research. They will only look at each other sadly, realizing that you're not just some weak, crazy, mixed up kid...which all we lesser apostates supposedly are...but you are instead a dangerous individual who must be dealt with for the good of the congregation. Right now, they probably think you just need straightening out, which is (partially) why they promised your wife they wouldn't DF you. Once they realize they were wrong, they will DF you anyway.
None taken. I understand and wish I had handled everything differently YEARS ago. I didn't WANT this to happen. But my hand is being forced. If I don't talk to her and the elders....I risk her interpreting my lack of action as a sign that I know I'm wrong. I fear that my lack of action may serve to bolser her faith in the organization. I KNOW the elders won't care about my research points. That's not why I'd be doing it. I'd be doing it under the hope that my wife will see that my questions cannot be answered. And hopefully that makes the lightbulb in her head go off.
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outsmartthesystem
Dare I suggest that the elders got your wife to dare you to enter the KH to trick you into going there, exposing yourself as an apostate?
I don't think so.....but then again.....people are usually betrayed by those they trust the most, no?
When she has her meeting on Sunday and sees you and your kids getting ready for a GREAT time somewhere else,
This too is a problem. I've tried the innocent "I'm going to take the kids to the pool" on Sunday. Her response is that there are only a few hours each week that she and the kids are at meetings. If I insist on doing family activities during those precious few hours then I am showing disrespect to her. Not respecting her desire to be at the meetings and have her children with her is something "an apostate" would do. I don't want to do anythign that she would classify as "sneaky".
Hi outsmartthesystem, I agree with sinis. It is much better not to talk with your wife about the WTBTS, tell her how much you love her and your children, and plan fun activities that you and your family can do and will allow them to interact with "Worldly" people, especially if those activities will prevent them from going to meetings.
Believe me....I like Sinis' approach as well. But she is too damn smart for it. Trust me. I can get away with it once in a while but if she senses that I am "planning" activities to keep her or the kids away from the hall.....she will lose trust in me. She will think I am trying to be a "sneaky opposer".
My dear Brother, you have NOT out smarted the system this time.
Yeah....I'd have to change my name to gotfuckedbythesystem
Perhaps you could tell your wife that you INTEND to do so, but ask her to listen to your prepared material and the issues you struggle with.
Already tried that. Her response is that the elders are in their respective positions for a reason. Because they "understand and can teach". My wife admits she cannot prove 607BC but seriously believes the elders can which is why she wants me to talk to them
Your other alternative is to decide that the new Watchtowers (Oct & Nov) have completely resolved the issues you had. GOLLY GEE! Why didn't they ever explain the 607 fiasco so clearly before????????????? No need to meet with anyone. Start playing the Theocratic Strategy Game.
Ha! But then she'll expect me to start going back to the KH again! :)
Sounds like your wife wants to hear your side of the story. Get her to understand that you cannot talk with the elders as they will not listen!!! Remind her of the problems that you getting df will cause your family. I difused my wife from approaching the elders that way and explained I will never go to another meeting with her ever again. It worked. Now I just wait for each moment that comes along and stick in the facts. Eventually the real truth will shine through. Again she sounds curious to me and thats all you need to work with. Hope it goes well for you.
She IS curious. But like me several years ago....she is scared to death to read anything "apostate". Her dad is an elder and fills her head with wonderful elder lies. She truly believes the elders will NOT DF me for disagreeing. And the only arsenal I have is testimony from books written by former members and websites like this one. She thinks that all former JWs and ones that visit websites like this one are all liars. She is unafraid of the problems that me getting DFd would cause. She even said "If I believed the way you do, I would go DIRECTLY to the elders with my material. And if they DF me then they DF me. NOTHING is more important than knowing the truth. I would NOT let the fear of DFing prevent me from getting all the facts straight"
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outsmartthesystem
I might add..... ask your wife, if you were to get Dfd because of this meeting, "how is she going to handle the situation?" put it back on her ......you can show her various situations where it has happened to others just for asking questions.
She insists that NOTHING would change and she would love me even more for approaching the situation head on. The problem with showing her various situations where ones HAVE been DFd just for askign questions is that they are all contained in "apostate" material or within the confines of websites like these. Remember.....everyone on here is mentally diseased therefore you are all lying about why you were disfellowshipped.
You can do alot of awesome stuff with your kids without piting them against their mother
Amen. That would not make for a good relationship
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man oh man
sounds like you have thought this through.
sounds like you have a very loving and strong wife.
sounds like you have made up your mind.
whatever you do i wish you the very best!
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sinis
It sounds like your fucked. I really do not know what else to suggest. I guess you could just live your life, stay married and let the chips fall... I know the type of person you are projecting from your wifes perspective. My mother is the SAME, the only one still in, and will not even entertain looking at other material or engage in research that may prove otherwise. Brain washed 100%... only death will set them free. In the meantime, before we all go to the happy hunting ground, just try to be the best dad and husband. I would let the whole JW thing go, and find some freedom within the scope you are given. Maybe, on day, your wife may come around.
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outsmartthesystem
I would let the whole JW thing go, and find some freedom within the scope you are given. Maybe, on day, your wife may come around.
That would be so much easier if it weren't for the kids. As an adult....she is free to believe whatever crap she wants to. But it actually hurts my heart to see her unknowlingly teach my small children to give up their minds to the control of others.
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sizemik
I agree with sinis 100% . . .
You must get it clear . . . the Elders are not the slightest bit interested in the content of your questions . . . even if you're absolutely right and they have no answer . . . it just isn't what they're focussed on. What they are looking for is whether or not you are confused or uncertain (and therefore salvagable) or whether you are set in your disbelief. If it is obvious to them that it is the latter . . . they will DF you.
Your wife may be truth-loving and committed to you whole-souled. But her intention is the same. It's not to test the validity of your objections . . . it's to have you back as a JW husband. If it becomes obvious that that's not possible . . . things will change there too . . . and not for the better. Remember, she will quite likely discuss any outcome with the Elders further . . . and they have a strong hold on her mentally.
Do not have this meeting if you can avoid it . . . it will not end well. The only option now is not to discuss anything doctrinal or JW related with either your wife or the Elders. It sounds harsh . . . but that's the only card left to play.
In the mean time get hold of and read Steve Hassans books "Combatting Cult Mind Control" and "Releasing the Bonds" . . . and give it some time. It's not so much a time factor with your kids . . . it's a question of getting it right. The time will come for their release. You'll never accomplish it until the time is right . . . and it isn't now.
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outsmartthesystem
THanks everyone. Thus far I've managed to avoid disaster. My wife agreed she should not have pushed for such a meeting unless it was something we both wanted. At least as of now.....I have time on my side.