The Father of the Lie

by sabastious 38 Replies latest jw friends

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  ziddina

  Oh, and your comment,

  "So why do we get fearful of something like public speaking? Public speaking does not threaten our life at all, but some of the most intense fear comes from people who are speaking to the public. ...."

  Public speaking requires group approval. There's always the chance - the threat - that one's presentation will result in group censure or worse yet, group apathy...

  Apparently most people don't realize this, but "group approval" was essential for human survival during most of humanity's evolution. A human cast off by his/her tribal group became instantly vulnerable to lions, leopards, crocodiles, cheetahs, hyeanas, baboons, and so on...

  There's always been strength in numbers... And I cannot emphasize this enough - humanity has ALWAYS been a species of HERD/PACK/POD animals. That "Marlboro Man" mythology is just that - a huge myth. Human beings nearly always were safer in a group - ESPECIALLY for the first hundred thousand years of our species' existence...

  That behavior pattern - vulnerability, if you will - is exactly what made excommunication - expulsion - exile - such an effective means of discipline. It's really a type of living death, given humanity's need for companionship - a yearning to be with familiar other humans, which was originally based upon the need to be part of the "herd" in order to survive...

  And that is EXACTLY why shunning is such a vicious, yet effective, method of discipline/abuse...

  Zid
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  sabastious

  So, I would hazard a guess that this little conversation about "believers" and "non-believers" is instantly limited to bible-believers....

  Not at all actually. I purposefully used the word "believer" in an attempt not to pigeon hole this conversation to the Bible. I have a passion for theology, but my roots are in the Bible.

  -Sab
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  sabastious

  Zid, I feel like you are confusing lying with different forms of hope. The ancients you speak about didn't have to lie to survive, but simply not to give up despite reason to. Sometimes when one doesn't give up they just die trying. When the that happens some would debate, depending on the circumstance, that it was a life lost frivolously. That is where the real lie is. If everyone gives up on surviving upon realizing the facts then there is no forward momentum to work with and society eventually ceases to exist. We have to grow and truth is the power of growth. When real survival is truly on the table anything goes even a lie that's why we are capable of them. But lies should never be passed on as truth, that's what is destroying society as a whole while we speak.

  -Sab
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  sabastious

  Public speaking requires group approval. There's always the chance - the threat - that one's presentation will result in group censure or worse yet, group apathy...

  In our current world, group approval, in the context of public speaking, definetly shouldn't trigger a life or death fear response, yet it does for many people. This is because we are in the midst of the evolution of our human brain. Again, as the only sentient life we know about we have the responsibility to explain things truthfully (who else will do it?). We are at a point where these things are explainable like with your animal pack explanation for fear of public speaking. We are more efficient in packs that much is clear, but should we feel a near death experience when we are put in a situation where group disapproval is possible? We are reasonable humans because humans are the only ones with reason so we must use it.

  To be good at public speaking is to conquer that fear of disapproval from the "group." From what I have read of the great public speakers they say that fear never goes away, but it greatly diminishes. That diminishing is a process that takes a great deal of personal growth. I get the feeling that since you can explain that group approval is a pack mentality showing up somehow justifies the fear response, which of course it does not. Explanation of our brain actually demystifies ourselves just enough so that we can grow even further.

  Is is just me or do you have a fiery tone?

  -Sab
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  ziddina

  "To be good at public speaking is to conquer that fear of disapproval from the "group." ..."

  Right...

  And as I pointed out earlier, that fear of disapproval is a result of tens of thousands - actually, hundreds of thousands - of years of evolving in a "herd" - "pack" - "group" - "pod" setting...

  So, although disapproval of an audience usually doesn't result in expulsion today, the vestigal memories of the harsh results of such expulsions over our evolutionary past is probably the cause of the irrational fear that you referred to - a fear that is - nowadays - all out of proportion to the modern settings...
• 

  sabastious

  So, although disapproval of an audience usually doesn't result in expulsion today, the vestigal memories of the harsh results of such expulsions over our evolutionary past is probably the cause of the irrational fear that you referred to - a fear that is - nowadays - all out of proportion to the modern settings...

  And what solves that inherent evolutionary flaw? The left brain can solve it with logic, but it can only be relied upon when it is anchored in reason or truth. Lies will destroy us all in the end unless combatted with reason.

  -Sab
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  ziddina

  "The ancients you speak about didn't have to lie to survive, ..."

  Ah, first of all, I was referring to self-delusion, which is a form of lying - to oneself. There are many, many shades and flavors of "lies" and "lying"...

  Which brings up this point - regarding your approach to the situation...

  "That is where the real lie is. If everyone gives up on surviving upon realizing the facts then there is no forward momentum to work with and society eventually ceases to exist. We have to grow and truth is the power of growth. When real survival is truly on the table anything goes even a lie that's why we are capable of them. But lies should never be passed on as truth, that's what is destroying society as a whole while we speak. ..."

  Uhm, I'm not quite comfortable with your general discussion regarding what should be very specific situations - it seems that you've taken a viewpoint that approaches "black and white" - while not actually BEING there, but it comes close - while attempting to discuss in a very general way, the act of lying...

  And as I said above, there are many, many shades and flavors of "Lies" and "Lying". And there are good and bad reasons to lie - and the "good" or "bad" 'morality' of a lie often depends on where you stand in any particular situation...

  So, could you pin down or be more specific as to the framework within which you are discussing the acts of lying? That's why I mentioned the various religious movements - in my first post on this thread - to either widen the theological discussion, or preferably be much more specific as to which acts of lying you wanted to discuss...

  Lying in general could be perceived as a subject as wide as, say, gravity... Or light...

  Zid
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  ziddina

  "And what solves that inherent evolutionary flaw? ..."

  Who says it's a flaw...??? It's a vestigal behavior pattern - at this point in time, and regarding the specific subject of public speaking...

  By flatly stating that it's a "flaw", you're heading back towards "black and white" thinking, again...

  If we were discussing a different type of public speaking - say, trying to talk a gang out of beating you up - then suddenly that "vestigal" evolved fear becomes valid, again...

  Now do you see what I mean, about being more specific? And also, that the morality of any so-called "vice" can depend to a great deal upon the specifics of the situation...

  Zid
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  sabastious

  Uhm, I'm not quite comfortable with your general discussion regarding what should be very specific situations - it seems that you've taken a viewpoint that approaches "black and white" - while not actually BEING there, but it comes close - while attempting to discuss in a very general way, the act of lying...

  Yes I am a liar, but I am only are personally accountable for the ones I know are lies. I have expelled those I knew were untrue and that leaves the "rest." The lies I tell unknowingly I have a responsibility to make right eventually. In order to do that I must seek out others, which is why I am on this forum in part.

  -Sab
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  sabastious

  Who says it's a flaw...??? It's a vestigal behavior pattern - at this point in time, and regarding the specific subject of public speaking...

  flaw /flô/

  Noun:

  A mark, fault, or other imperfection that mars a substance or object. A squall of wind; a short storm.

  Are you to say that our current evolutionary trajectory is perfect? Zid, I'd like to evolve as elegantly as possible and again, as the only sentient beings here, we are among the few that have control over the elegance of evolution. Survival is no longer the only goal in mind.

  -Sab