by sabastious 38 Replies latest jw friends
And as I said above, there are many, many shades and flavors of "Lies" and "Lying". And there are good and bad reasons to lie - and the "good" or "bad" 'morality' of a lie often depends on where you stand in any particular situation...
My OP doesn't differentiate enough I will admit that, but there's no need to dismiss my entire point because you think I'm being too general.
-Sab
"Yes I am a liar, but I am only are personally accountable for the ones I know are lies. ..."
AAAAAAAAAAAARrrrrrrrrrrgh!! There you go again!! Black and white thinking!!!
Look, Sabastious, I'm trying to bake pumpkin cake and gingerbread men and a sweet-potato with fruit casserole, and I just cannot give this discussion the attention it deserves...
Try coaxing AK_Jeff or Terry in here... I'm sure that they could give you many more viewpoints - and a wider variety - than I could...
Zid
AAAAAAAAAAAARrrrrrrrrrrgh!! There you go again!! Black and white thinking!!!
Fundamental thinking is a starting point not an ending point for me. At least that's the way I try to live my life. Do my posts on this thread indicate otherwise?
-Sab
"as the only sentient beings here..."
Really??? According to a Bronze-Age Middle Eastern desert sheepherders' god? What do they know of dolphins? Or killer whales? Or crows? Or octopi? Or other forms of life that are being discovered to be much more intelligent than previously thought....?
Like I said, I just don't have time for this, right now. Maybe some other time...
Zid
If we were discussing a different type of public speaking - say, trying to talk a gang out of beating you up - then suddenly that "vestigal" evolved fear becomes valid, again...
Our right brain keeps us alive in tight fight or flight spots it will never become obsolete, but it needs to know it's place within the system. We are a species that constantly misuse our fight or flight responses which is connected to our increase of lying, I believe.
-Sab
Really??? According to a Bronze-Age Middle Eastern desert sheepherders' god? What do they know of dolphins? Or killer whales? Or crows? Or octopi? Or other forms of life that are being discovered to be much more intelligent than previously thought....?
Do you see dolphins or crows tackling the big questions of existence somewhere I don't know about?
-Sab
Like I said, I just don't have time for this, right now. Maybe some other time...
LOL, on the whole drift of the conversation here!
A few observations: For one thing, to a certain extent I feel that the term "lie" as used here, is being too all-inclusive. There is a large difference between a "lie" in its true sense, and the inaccuracies that creep in to our understanding in spite of our best efforts. "Lie" has a negative connotation as to our character, while one can be perfectly innocent yet still be mistaken. This small realization can make a major difference in our outlook on life.
I posted a piece on "What Is Truth" that takes this up rather thoroughly, here on the board about 10 years ago (http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/16624/1/What-Is-Truth ). You may find it interesting. The outlook shown there has transformed my "ignorance" into an adventure, because there are now whole areas of inquiry just waiting for exploration, and wandering around in unknown territory is one of my favorite activities.
The second item is related, and Farkel approached it in his comment "Most people are just not up to absorbing what you say. They simply don't have the attention span nor possibly the intelligence for it. But mostly, people just don't have the patience to read it."
In my opinion, most people do have the raw intelligence, but it has been suppressed by those around us who condemn our thinking for ourselves and demanding that we believe what we are told to believe. Basically, we have been taught that it is a mortal sin for us to even try to think, and that has become so ingrained in most of us that we won't even try. This, more than any other area, is where fear comes into the equation. The very act of thinking has become fearful, as we've been brainwashed into believing it's wrong. Ergo: critical thinking skills become withered due to lack of use.
Naturally, the Totchwower Society has taken a lead in this brainwashing with their condemnation of "independent thinking".
Encouraging others to think and reason on such things is probably the best favor we can do for them. But at the same time, how can they do that without posts that challenge them?
A sidelight: I feel that we are missing an opportunity here. I get the feeling that the reason most come to the point where they leave the Organization is because they feel trapped and are unable to think. They've been taught that thinking is wrong and it takes a major act of rebellion, as well as an abandonment of both the Bible and the idea of Christian morality, to break that hold. They don't have the insight to divide the true from the false, so they reject all of it.
If they were to run across a clear, concise explanation that re-enforces their gut feelings and made it so they didn't have to reject even the good things that gave them hope, many would find the way out much easier. There are many scriptures that demonstrate that their unease is well founded, such as Proverbs 5:1, 2.
Tom
Thanks, Lone Wolf...
It was my impression - initially - that Sabastious was approaching the subject based on Judeo-Christian morality, and only as it applies to that section of humanity and their perceived system of morality...
On the other hand, I was coming at it from a very different angle... I was looking at it from the evolutionary beginnings of humanity, and into the animal world, as well...
Plus, the term "lie" is so flat and general... There's deception, self-deception, exaggeration, implication, and so on...
And "lies" - using that term in an even broader sense - deception, exaggeration, mimicry - frequently occurs in the natural world, too...
Zid
