Paul's Out-Of-Body Experience - How did we Miss This?

by wordfamine.com 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Ding

  “How did we miss this?”

  We missed it because we were indoctrinated to miss it.

  Specifically:

  1. JWs are taught carefully selected mantras.

  WTS doctrines are based on a small number of carefully selected proof-texts that ignore the surrounding context and other passages that don’t match the paradigm.

  As an example, if you were a JW any length of time, you can probably quote from memory this portion of Ecclesiastes 9:5: “For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all…”

  The WT always stops there. They take that half verse literally as being Jehovah’s revelation of what happens to a person after death. End of discussion. Mantra complete. No competing thoughts or questions are allowed.

  Were you ever encouraged to read or ask questions about the very next verse? “6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no more portion any more to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun.”

  If you take THAT verse literally as Jehovah’s revelation about what happens to a person after death, so much for anyone being resurrected and living forever in paradise on earth! Since it doesn’t match the WT paradigm, it is never quoted.

  2. JWs are only supposed to ask the Watchtower’s questions and give the Watchtower’s answers.

  Think of the Watchtower studies. The questions weren’t YOUR questions. They were the questions the WT writers asked for you. They didn’t want your thinking regarding the answers. You were supposed to go through the Watchtower ahead of time, underline, and then regurgitate their answers.

  What would have happened if someone had read out this thread’s quotation from Paul and asked for an explanation? Would Leolaia have been allowed to share any of the insights she posted here?

  3. JWs are required to trust the organization, not their own Bible study.

  Who were you to think you could understand the Bible? If you thought you had your own insight, you were proud and rebellious and running ahead of Jehovah. Your only hope of understanding the Bible was to meekly receive meat in due season from the table of the faithful and discreet slave.

  4. The WTS gives JWs so much WT literature to read, so many meetings to attend, and so much field service to do, that you don’t have time to do anything else.
• 

  Band on the Run

  The text is a hindrance to Witness doctrine which seems strange for a fundamentalist, literal group. My awakening occured afer law school where I was trained to pay great attention to the actual words. Verses are always read out of context. The deference they order prevents people from ever thinkiing about the text. I always relied on them to tell me what it said. I was capable of reading. The Bible can seem very imposing. It is not only Witnesses. I think you are churched in youth or not. When I read historical accounts or visit an art museum, people in an earlier period had much more Biblical knowledge.

  It took me a while to see the actual text sans the Witness gloss. They assert knowledge that no other humans possess. It seems monstrous and silly if you are outside their reach. Their use of secular sources used to impress me. I wondered why everyone could not be JWs once they heard these scholars agree with the Witnesses. How many people have ready access to these scholarly writings? It was a herculean effort before the Internet. What strikes me is that the writing department people must know they are engaging in dishonesty.
• 

  EntirelyPossible

  To make the point another poster did earlier, they treat this as a dream or vision, not an actual out of body experience. I brought this up during my JC when I got DF'ed and they siad exactly that. I then used as a springboard to discuss my issue with them saying the Bible literally doesn't say exactly what it does (as in this example) and then saying that it does say things that it specifically doesn't (like Jesus is only the mediator for some). I also brought up that paradise actually part of heaven and associated with paradise in Jewish theology and that Jesus, being a perfect Jew, would have known this and that was plainly what he meant to the man on the cross next to him and that was what Paul plainly meant.

  Eventually they quit letting me use a bible in the JC.
• 

  tec

  Eventually they quit letting me use a bible in the JC.

  Funny. I believe they tried the same thing with Shelby.

  Peace,

  Tammy
• 

  EntirelyPossible

  That's funny Tec. She and I may be more alike than we know...

  And I earlier meant that third heaven is associated with Paradise, not that pardise is associated with itself...
• 

  Leolaia

  The real interesting thing here is that this is one area in which the Bible is influenced by "pagan" Greek concepts. Paul did not teach "immortality of the soul" in a classic Platonic sense that excluded native Jewish eschatology (with its focus on the resurrection), but rather his conceptualization of the body and what happens at death was shaped by Hellenistic ideas found in Pythagorianism and Platonism. There is a difference between adopting an doctrine as a whole as opposed to being influenced by it. The way Paul conceptualized the body as containing the person like a tent or clothing, as being burdensome and heavy, with the person being released from the body at death naked, with the person going into the divine presence at death, all of this corresponds to what was commonly believed in Hellenized Judaism (especially that influenced by Plato). It certainly does not jive with what the Society claims is the single, unitary anthropological teaching in the Bible: that the person is simply an animated body whose existence ceases at death.

  The Society is certainly aware that pre-Christian Judaism was influenced by Hellenistic thought:

  *** w99 8/15 p. 11 Greek Philosophy—Did It Enrich Christianity? ***

  Centuries later, when ancient Palestine became part of the Greek Empire under Alexander the Great in the fourth century B.C.E., this corruption plumbed new depths and left behind a lasting and corrosive legacy. Alexander recruited Jews into his army. The contacts between the Jews and their new conqueror deeply influenced Jewish religious thinking. Judaistic education was penetrated by Hellenistic thought. High Priest Jason is reputed to have established a Greek academy in Jerusalem in 175 B.C.E. to promote the study of Homer.
  
  Interestingly, a Samaritan, writing in the second half of the second century B.C.E., sought to present Bible history as Hellenized historiography. Apocryphal Jewish books, such as Judith and Tobit, actually allude to Greek erotic legends. A number of Jewish philosophers appeared who attempted to reconcile Greek thought with the Jewish religion and the Bible.
  
  The figure that is most credited with this is Philo, a Jew of the first century C.E. He appropriated the doctrines of Plato (fourth century B.C.E.), the Pythagoreans, and the Stoics. Jews were profoundly influenced by Philo’s views. Summing up this intellectual infiltration of Greek thought into Jewish culture, Jewish author Max Dimont says: “Enriched with Platonic thought, Aristotelian logic, and Euclidian science, Jewish scholars approached the Torah with new tools. . . . They proceeded to add Greek reason to Jewish revelation.”

  But they do not seem to allow that early Christians, as Jews, were themselves influenced by Greek ideas, as that would make the NT influenced by Hellenistic Judaism. Influence from Greek philosophy is strictly conceived as something happening AFTER the death of the apostles in the second century AD. Certainly many of the later apologists and church fathers were directly influenced by Greek ideas; Justin Martyr had studied philosophy and cited Plato directly in his writings. But there was much unconscious influence in the NT. And the references to being "out of the body", "away from the body", the body as the "tabernacle" or clothing for the person, the person away from the body as "naked", etc. are all examples of this in the Bible.
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  ThomasCovenant

  Watchtower 15th Dec 1970

  Questions From Readers

  What is the "third heaven" and "paradise" to which 2 Corinthians 12:2, 4 refers?-R. B., U.S.A.

  At 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 the apostle Paul describes one who was "caught away . . . to the third heaven" and "into paradise." Since there is no mention in the Scriptures of any other person having had such an experience, it seems likely that this was the apostle Paul's own experience.

  Whereas some have endeavored to relate Paul's reference to the "third heaven" to the early Rabbinical view that there were stages of heaven, even a total of "seven heavens," this view finds no support in the Scriptures.

  When we examine the context, it becomes apparent that the apostle is not referring to the heavens within earth's atmospheric expanse or to outer space. The apostle wrote: "I shall pass on to supernatural visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in union with Christ who, fourteen years ago-whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know; God knows-was caught away as such to the third heaven. . . . he was caught away into paradise and heard unutterable words which it is not lawful for a man to speak."-2 Cor. 12:1-4.

  It therefore appears that the reference to the "third heaven" relates to the spiritual heavens and indicates the superlative degree of the rapture in which this vision was seen. In this regard, one can note the way words and expressions are repeated three times at Isaiah 6:3, Ezekiel 21:27, John 21:15-17 and Revelation 4:8, evidently for the purpose of expressing an intensification of the quality or idea.

  Caught away to the "third heaven," the vision-viewer entered "paradise" and heard unutterable words. A key to understanding Paul's description of the vision is found in the prophecies of the Hebrew Scriptures that relate to the restoration of God's ancient people. Throughout many of the prophetic books of the Bible divine promises are found regarding the restoration of Israel from the lands of its exile to its desolated homeland. God would cause that abandoned land to be tilled and sown, to produce richly and to abound with humankind and animalkind; the cities would be rebuilt and inhabited and people would say: "That land yonder which was laid desolate has become like the garden of Eden."-Ezek. 36:6-11, 29, 30, 33-35; compare Isaiah 51:3; Jeremiah 31:10-12; Ezekiel 34:25-27.

  However, these prophecies also show that paradise conditions related to the people themselves. By faithfulness to God, they could now "sprout" and flourish as "trees of righteousness," enjoying beautiful spiritual prosperity like a "well-watered garden," showered by bounteous blessings from God due to having his favor. (Isa. 58:11; 61:3, 11; Jer. 31:12; 32:41) The people of Israel had been God's vineyard, his planting, but their badness and apostasy from true worship had caused a figurative ‘withering away' of their spiritual field, even before the literal desolation of their land took place.-Compare Exodus 15:17; Isaiah 5:1-8; Jeremiah 2:21.

  Thus the paradise envisioned by the apostle Paul could refer to a spiritual state among God's people, as in the case of fleshly Israel. This can be seen from the fact that the Christian congregation was also God's "field under cultivation," his spiritual vineyard, rooted in Jesus Christ and bearing fruit to God's praise. (1 Cor. 3:9; John 15:1-8) As such it had replaced the nation of Israel in God's favor.-Compare Matthew 21:33-43.

  Paul's vision, nevertheless, must logically have applied to some future time. An apostasy was due to set in among the Christian congregation, was already working in Paul's day, and would result in a condition like that of a field oversown with weeds. (Matt. 13:24-30, 36-43; Acts 20:29; 2 Thess. 2:3, 7; compare Hebrews 6:7, 8.) So, Paul's paradise vision would not reasonably apply while such was the case. Rather, it would evidently relate to the time of the "harvest season" when the genuine Christians would be gathered by the angelic reapers and would enjoy rich blessings and spiritual prosperity from God.

  The anointed footstep followers of Jesus Christ who are living today are indeed enjoying a spiritual paradise, as can be seen from the spiritual prosperity now evident among them. In fact, the spiritual prosperity today under God's established kingdom is more glorious than that enjoyed during the apostolic days, the initial period of Christianity. Sharing in today's spiritual prosperity are the "great crowd" of "other sheep" who look forward to enjoying a literal paradise here on the earth in the near future.-Rev. 21:1-4.
• 

  ThomasCovenant

  Watchtower 15th Dec 1983

  Questions From Readers

  ¦ Why do Jehovah's Witnesses say that there will be a future Paradise on earth, since 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 links "paradise" with "the third heaven"?

  The context indicates that the "paradise" mentioned at 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 is not a physical paradise on earth. However, many passages in the Bible prove that God will restore a literal Paradise to our earth.

  The fact is that the first Paradise humans experienced was literal. Adam and Eve lived in a beautiful park, or garden, which is the basic meaning of the Hebrew, Greek and Persian words rendered paradise. They had the prospect of endless life in happiness and good health in that Paradise. Yet they lost that earthly Paradise when they rebelled and sinned, leading God to expel them from the garden of Eden.

  Where does that leave us, now and for the future? There certainly is no evidence of our planet's now being turned into a paradise. Rather, pollution and destruction abound. (Revelation 11:18) Still, it is inconceivable that God's purpose for the earth to be a global Paradise will fail; what he starts, he finishes. To this end he sent his Son to provide a ransom, thus laying the groundwork for our sins to be forgiven and the imperfection we have inherited from Adam to be overcome. (1 Timothy 2:5, 6; Romans 5:18) When that is accomplished, humans will be able to enjoy what was set before Adam and Eve, endless life. Where?

  God's original purpose for humans was endless life in a Paradise on earth, and God's purpose cannot fail or be thwarted. (Isaiah 55:11) So can we not look forward to that endless life being enjoyed right here on planet Earth, with the earth then restored to a paradisaic condition? There are numerous proofs in the Bible that this is the proper view, that God's will yet will "take place, as in heaven, also upon earth." (Matthew 6:10; Revelation 21:4, 5) For a more extensive discussion of the Biblical support for this, see "Does the Bible Promise an Earthly Paradise?" in The Watchtower of October 15, 1983.

  Still, what about the apostle Paul's words in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4? He pointedly said there that he was dealing with "supernatural visions and revelations of the Lord." And evidently he was the one who received a special vision or rapturous insight into something that was future from his time. He spoke of being "caught away into paradise." But since he also mentioned a "third heaven," it seems he was referring to something spiritual, as distinct from a literal garden paradise. There was precedent for his doing so.

  Many prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures foretold that the Jews who were exiled in Babylon would be restored to their homeland. In addition to indications that the land and literal environmental condition would improve, these prophecies indicated that there would be a change in the people, the restored Jews. For instance, Isaiah wrote that Jehovah would ‘invigorate their very bones, and they would become like a well-watered garden' and be "called big trees of righteousness, the planting of Jehovah, for him to be beautified." (Isaiah 58:11; 61:3; compare Psalm 1:3.) Using similar imagery about an earlier period, Isaiah wrote that when the Israelites were faithful to Jehovah they were like his vineyard or planting; when unfaithful, they were vines producing wild grapes and destined for burning down, with thornbush and weeds growing in their place.-Isaiah 5:1-7.

  Hence, there is Biblical reason to understand Paul's visionary reference in 2 Corinthians 12:4 to be about a future restoration of spiritual prosperity among God's worshipers. He himself foretold that a falling away from true Christianity would occur before the "presence" of the Lord. (Acts 20:29, 30; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-8) However, that would not be the permanent situation. The true Christian congregation, "God's field under cultivation," would again flourish and be fruitful. (1 Corinthians 3:9) We understand that this is the paradise that Paul saw in vision. His reference to such a spiritual paradise, though, in no way takes away from the many Biblical promises of an approaching earthly Paradise, a Paradise restored in accord with God's original purpose for the earth.
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  Larsinger58

  Very, very interesting. Apparently it is a technical state or condition that exists when a person is having a spiritual connection via some sort of a transe. The body is breathing but the mind is somehow transplanted somewhere else or in another dimension, actually.

  Of note, this technical state must be known to Satanists because as the Bible notes, when the Christ is born at the second coming via the woman of the wilderness, Satan does try to devour the new child. This relates to as well the UN, the beast that ascends out of the abysss being successful in killing the "two witnesses" for 3.5 days. The 2nd coming occurred on December 25, 1992 which was 3.5 days beyond the prophesied time by the "two witnesses" which is represented by their death, the death of their preaching about the messiah arriving on the winter solstice, December 21.

  However, with that likely confusing background, the mechanism for trying to prevent the 2nd coming was to prevent this "out of body" transe state for the messiah. That is, there was a perception of a need for a day or more of continuous transe state to effect the second coming since the messiah had to also experience the "battle in heaven" before becoming the messiah. At the second coming, the messiah takes up the body of a normal person (well, not "normal" but regular, imperfect, rather than a perfect body as at the first coming). The "transmigration" of Christ in heaven to a physical body would require an extended transe state, apparently, and perceiving this, UN agents tried to prevent this transe state by inducing air-born drugs of some sort to interfere with deep sleep. This was accomplished by simply instilling the stimulant in a perfume. So just as you can smell an expensive perfume when a woman walks in a room, you can inhale other chemicals. So preventing the 2nd coming sometimes only took brisking past the messiah wearing a strong perfume laden with some kind of an anti-sleep stimulant. The UN/Freemason agents accomplished this on December 21 so the required transe could not take place.

  Though the two witnesses were dead with respect to the specific date for the 2nd coming, their bodies were not buried. Thus they were still active on some level to try to afford a delayed 2nd coming. The task was to isolate the body of the messiah for 2 days, preventing inhalation of any chemicals that would interefere with the transe. What they came up with was hiding the body in a metal dumpster which also served to deflect any traking devices that might have been implanted on the messiah or in his clothes. There was a break in visual observation for just a few minutes approaching midnight on Christmas Eve, allowing the messiah to escape to the designated comercial dumpster and remain there, invisible to UN agents until the 2nd coming took place.

  SO ALL THAT TO SAY THIS... I relate to the "out of body" reference since the 2nd coming involved this type of transe and spiritual state where the physical body is domant and sleep, apparently a requirement for that type of spiritual connection between a human and the spirit world. And, of course, it is well known enough to become a focus of prevention and interference by UN Satanists at the time of the second coming, with the help, of course, of UN membered WTS with Fred Franz at the helm. Of course, after the UN agents/WTS were successful in preventing the 2nd coming on the solstice, (Dec 21), Jehovah executed Fred Franz the very next day on the 22nd. Not a coincidence. The 2nd coming did occur though 3.5 days after the 21st on the 25th just as the Bible prophesied.

  Anyway, I can relate to this totally based on my own experience. Quite interesting. Thanks for the post!

  LS
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  Larsinger58

  As far as "paradise" is concerned. Of course, many things in the earth reflect those things in heaven. There are trees in heaven, and creatures, etc. Of course, also angels. So Eden, the paradise, reflects how heaven is. So depending upon the text and context of the text, "paradise" can be a reference to either heaven or earth.

  When Jesus told the evil-doer "you will be with me in paradise", though, likely it was a reference to being with Christ at the 1st resurrection and serving with him during the millennium, during which time all the elect will be on the earth. But of more specific note, if Jesus understood this man would be in his personal staff working at the Kingdom Headquarters, then "paradise" might have been a specific reference to the city of the Kingdom of Heaven, which is Honolulu, HI. That is where Christ will reign from for 1000 years. Christ comes through the line of Judah and King David at the 1st coming, but through the line of Joseph at the second coming.

  Ask Leolaia to tell us about the Jewish traditional view of the two messiahs, ben Yosef and ben David. The Jews have always understood there would be two messiahs, only we know its the same messiah in two different bodies at two different times and through two different tribes. That's why after his resurrection, Jesus appeared in a lot of different bodies besides his own because when he would next be seen he would not be in his perfect body from the 1st coming, but in the body of someone else, an ordinary man, one of his chosen followers.

  Ask Leolaia to explain about the two wave offerings. The FIRST is without leaven, meaning without sin. But the second at Pentecost is with leaven which simply means at the SECOND coming Christ would be in a sinful body. He must use someone else's body to re-enter humanity since his first body is given up in sacrifice. Since he doesn't need a perfect body except that once, he just uses the human body of a volunteer who becomes the messiah at the second coming.

  At any rate, probably Christ had Honolulu in mind when he spoke to the evil doer, whom under other circumstances would likely have been baptized and one of Jesus' followers. Christ knew then what his assignment was and assured him he would be with him in "paradise" (Hawaii), which is where he will rule from.

  I know the above will mean little or nothing to most, but it is Biblical and it is real, so I'm just sharing for those who have the spiritual capacity for it. Anyway, gotta run before the "CASINO" closes! Hopefully I'll win a little change tonight.

  Have a good evening everyone!

  LS