Paul's Out-Of-Body Experience - How did we Miss This?

by wordfamine.com 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  wordfamine.com

  Very, very interesting. Apparently it is a technical state or condition that exists when a person is having a spiritual connection via some sort of a transe.

  For someone who isn't born again, this is impossible to really truly grasp. Paul meant literally what he said. There is no need to invoke Philo of Alexander (the father of spiritualizing everything) who was an unsaved jewish philosopher. He could know nothing about the new birth and the new spirit.

  This is what all the business with circumcision pictured. In the new birth event, the old spirit is cut away in the dividing of soul and spirit and a new spirt, one made alive and quickened from God is installed.

  It exists right along side the sinful body. This is a never-before-seen creation in the universe.

  Gal 2:20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation: - 2 Cor. 5: 17

  But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jer. 31:33

  The installation of a new spirit that is truly alive and incapable of perishing is simply the fulfillment of God's previous promises.... originally intended for Israel, but they didn't want it. Paul was surprised and didn't really know what to make of praying in tongues because while it really was his spirit praying....his fleshly mind didn't comprehend the meanings. So, he just decided that while that was going on, he'd just go ahead and pray with his fleshly mind as well.

  1 Cor. 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also:

  Millions of people have experienced this exact same phenomenon after they invited Jesus into their heart (spirit). I know lots of folks who have.

  Apparently, the new spirit is also capable of being in a different place than the body and yet, both are actually "you".

  This is all a very far cry from the heralds of Brooklyn, and yet it is right there in the New Testament bible plain as day.
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  Inkie

  The person the apostle Paul was referring to was not himself. It was John.
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  PSacramento

  When one is immersed in Greek infulence it will, wuite naturally, translate into their writings, especially if the person ( in this case Paul) was writing to a greek audience.

  It was a "point of reference" that they would understand.

  To Paul, the soul was corrutable and pershiable, but the spirit was immortal and, as per jewish teaching, went to God on the death of the body.

  The issue is HOW MUCH of a person is in the spirit?

  For the JW"s the spirit is an impersonal force so there is nothing of Us there, but that wasn't the case for Paul ( or John of Patmos either for example) who beleived then being "in the spirit" one retained WHO we were and only in the spirit ( the spirit that returns to God when we die) can we truly see and understand God.
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  Band on the Run

  The angels have personalities! Satan challenges God. These are people. Perhaps not human people but persons nevertheless. Why would god want robots.

  Their doctrine about soul sounds silly. Is this teaching central to their core doctrine -- that the WTBTS is the only authority? Did Miller believe these teachings? Did Russell believe this? I don't see any of it in scripture. It is such a gloss. The Bible is so indeterminate about many issues. Why can't they just acknowledge that there are mysteries?
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  Listener

  Good question Band on the Run and the quote from the W15 Dec 1970 (mentioned in ThomasCovernant's post) would explain why they cannot acknowledge that there are mysteries.

  "The anointed footstep followers of Jesus Christ who are living today are indeed enjoying a spiritual paradise, as can be seen from the spiritual prosperity now evident among them. In fact, the spiritual prosperity today under God's established kingdom is more glorious than that enjoyed during the apostolic days, the initial period of Christianity. Sharing in today's spiritual prosperity are the "great crowd" of "other sheep" who look forward to enjoying a literal paradise here on the earth in the near future.-Rev. 21:1-4."

  This is an amazing feat considering the apostles were inspired by God, were given visions and miracles and even had the greatest story teller amongst them for a short while.
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  AGuest

  May you all have peace!

  Please know, dear WF (peace to you!), that Paul was not referring to himself in the account; he was referring to the Apostle John, as dear Inkie stated (the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!). John is the one who "came to be in spirit" once again (Revelation 4:1, 2) - which is what "inspired" means (to be IN SPIRIT - which all of the Prophets were when they received divine expressions... which is why Paul wrote "All SCRIPTURE is inspired."). Which is why he was told to write down the things he HAD seen (which is what Paul was referring to)... WAS seeing, and would YET see (Revelation 1:19). Paul, who didn't know the Apostles very well yet wasn't sure whether John had actually BEEN in the spirit when he [John] saw/heard the things he did... or had received it in a dream/vision.

  Paul did not walk with my Lord personally, but was called and put to work just after Stephen was killed (as a replacement FOR Stephen, who he had sanctioned putting to death - Acts 9:16). Three (3) years passed between the time he was called by my Lord... and his going up to Jerusalem to finally meet the Apostles; he first went to Arabia, then back to Damascus. Even then, he only officially met Peter and James... and indirectly, John... when he went to Jerusalem the first time. When these realized that he knew about as much as they did (well, he thought he knew as much as they did - he was wrong, which is why he had to correct himself so much!)... they gave him the go ahead to "apostle" to the nations (uncircumcised only) while they continued with the circumcised. But there actually became such a lot of dissention between him and some of the other Apostles and older men (over DF'g, circumciscion, etc.) because he was inconsistent: he was teaching those he went to as the nations and uncircumcised... while telling them they didn't to get circumcised (which was right) but while trying to put them back under certain laws (which was wrong). Because of this, it wasn't for another 14 years that he officially met up with John... and the others he had not yet me... when he returned to Jerusalem to share the "revelation" HE had received on the matter of circumcision. (Galatians 1:13-2:5; Acts 15:1-5)

  When Paul wrote of this "experience" to the Corinthians, he was telling them of what had been related to HIM... as regards John... a man he now KNEW ("I KNOW a man"...). The experience was what had occurred with JOHN... fourteen years earlier ("who, fourteen years ago"...)... when Paul had first gone up to Jerusalem; and so HE heard of it from Peter or James... or someone else... and had now met the man himself: John.

  Here, he was simply relating what had been related to HIM... and saying that he was waiting for HIS hope to be fulfilled: to pass on to such visions and revelations (as had been given to JOHN), himself. (2 Corinthians 12:2-4).

  I hope this helps. Again, peace to you!

  A slave of Christ,

  SA
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  AGuest

  I would like to join the others who thanked dear Leolaia (peace to you, dear one, and thank you, as well!) for that excellent essay and add that this is what is meant by the "white robe"... "white 'outer' garment"... "clean, white linen": the SPIRIT body... which is immortal and INcorruptible (i.e., not subject to death, although certainly possible to destroy, which is not the same thing!). As a PERMANENT dwelling "vessel" (or "cup") for the spirit (the "man" one is on the INSIDE)... it is also referred to as a pillar/stone in God's temple/CITY: the permanent dwelling place for God's spirit... "NEW Jerusalem".)

  This is contrasted with the "[soiled] outer garment" - the FLESHLY Body... which is mortal and corruptible (i.e., subject to sickness, disease, and death!). As a TEMPORARY dwelling vessel ("cup") for the spirit, it is also referred to as a "tent" or "tabernacle" (the temporary dwelling place for God's).

  When we die, we put OFF the "soiled garment" (it returns to the dust). With rare exception (Enoch, Moses, Elijah, Christ), we ALL sleep... until we are either (1) resurrected to a spirit body (given a "white robe"), which occurs at the FIRST resurrection... or (2) resurrected to a fleshly body (at the SECOND resurrection), in which we are judged.

  For those who "put on" the "white robe"... immortality (which is in THAT body) swallows UP mortality, incorruption swallows up corruption (which is NOT in that body)... and life (which is IN that body)... swallows up death.

  It is likened to a "white robe" because it is clean: there is no sin or death IN IT, in contrast to the "soiled garment"... our fleshly bodies... which have sin and death IN them (so that no matter how hard one tries to keep the Law... one will STILL die - of sickness or age. "Sin". "Corruption." Which is NOT the same as the sin of the SPIRIT... which is sin resulting from CHOICES made. One can do nothing about the sin and death IN one - it is in the BODY; one can, however, "do something" about the sin that is in one's HEART).

  When Paul wrote that be absent from the body means being with the Lord, he was referring to the first resurrection (which occurs at Christ's return, for those who belong to him but have died). Such ones sleep... "under the altar" - a place of divine protection for the SPIRIT - until that return. When it occurs, they are raised to spirit bodies ("white robes")... at the SAME TIME as those who belong to Christ BUT HAVE NOT DIED... are CHANGED to such bodies. This is what my Lord meant when he said, "He that has died will be resurrected and he that has NOT died... will NEVER die." The latter NEVER die... because they are changed BEFORE their mortal bodies die.

  Anyway... again, thank you. The information you posted was very... ummmm... "rewarding" for me!

  Peace to you!

  A slave of Christ,

  SA
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  144001

  My fartgas had an out of body experience tonight, much to the chagrin of those whose nostrils were permeated by my gaseous rectal discharge!
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  AGuest

  So, you're about, what, 13, 14, dear 144? Or do you just "act" like it?

  Peace... and pee-yoo... to you!

  SA, on her own... saying, "See, dear ones (peace to you!)... this is what I meant by "turn-off" on the "slutty sister" thread. Who would WANT this as a life partner, heck, a friend... except maybe another 13-14 year old (male, of course... 'cause a girl would be so grossed out!)???
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  144001

  So, you're about, what, 13, 14, dear 144? Or do you just "act" like it?

  Sorry, Aguest, but I'm beyond the age that interests you. For your information, 13 and 14 year olds are incapable under the law of consenting to sexual intercourse. Get yourself a lawyer!